Daniel Coyle. The Talent Code

Re: Daniel Coyle. The Talent Code

Postby LesMurray » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:53 pm

I can talk to this in a couple of ways - first the ABS drills do a very good job of altering your swing DNA. So, practicing through focused drills to retrain the body and the "muscle memory" does work very well. Second, from a mental point of view, I have altered pathways through some very specific therapy techniques. I am speaking of a method called EMDR - eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. Especially effective for acute traumatic episodes, this method uses various methods of forcing the brain to create new neural pathways to overcome blockages. This method involves either alternating light sources in the left and right eye repeatedly, or sounds in each ear, or vibrations in each hand - basically any kind of stimulation that engages the brain subconsciously all the while having the patient focus on the feelings of a particular event. Basically, the person is able to change the perceptions of an event at an emotional level.
User avatar
LesMurray
 
Posts: 1192
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:32 pm
Location: Burbank, CA

Re: Daniel Coyle. The Talent Code

Postby TheCrow » Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:07 am

I totally agree that the emotional attachments to past events can be altered through therapy techniques. It's good to hear that you've successfully benefited from them.

The difficulty with changing physical movements is converting conscious intentions to subconscious motion. The drills are obviously designed to work their way in to the swing DNA but I believe that if you don't consciously integrate the drills into a full swing while hitting a golf ball there will be no change. If someone has an ingrained swing, in my opinion, the subconscious does not easily make the connection between hitting a bag and hitting a golf ball. I feel like the drills are good for creating the strength required to execute a good swing. Lag and TM often equate the drills to learning chords to play a song on a guitar. However, as someone that plays guitar, I feel like the drills equate more with getting your fingers on the correct notes and squeezing the neck, building strength in various chord positions. The magic happens though when you can switch from chord to chord, while strumming IN TIME. And to do that you really need to try playing a song. I guess this is starting to come off as a critique of ABS but this is something I've been thinking about since I finished Drill 3. The only thing this programs lacks is a bridge between drilling and actually hitting a golf ball. Grady and others have shown or explained drills that they've created to take the new strength to the driving range and I think the program would benefit if there was an accompanying ball striking drill for each module. Thoughts?
TheCrow
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:29 am

Re: Daniel Coyle. The Talent Code

Postby LesMurray » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:33 am

TheCrow wrote:The drills are obviously designed to work their way in to the swing DNA but I believe that if you don't consciously integrate the drills into a full swing while hitting a golf ball there will be no change...


I think it depends on where you are starting from in order to determine how quickly the drills can work their way into one's swing DNA. Based on my results and input from others in the program, 6 months is not enough time for the drills to become part of the swing DNA "unconsciously". I think the length of time you have been playing with your old swing has a lot to do with how long it takes for the drills to seep into the swing. This course is as much about undoing old habits as learning new ones. I believe it has actually been demonstrated by some in this program where they have taken a 6-month hiatus and have just done drills. Then when they get to the course, they indeed have a vastly different motion than before.

Personally, I felt while in Mod 3 that my current swing was hurt more than it was helped in terms of results on the course. Mod 3 so far has been my most frustrating module. But I attribute this to the fact that my body had no concept of pivot. And, while I drilled on Mod 3 the longest, my execution of such was far from perfect as Mod 4 is disclosing. However, something about how the Mod 4 drill works has triggered something in me that makes my Mod 3 execution much better - far from perfect, but much better.

As you state, these first three modules are very much like learning how to play the individual notes. Learning first just where the club needs to be at impact, how to apply the correct body pressures in the impact arena, and how to get out of impact. These next few modules start connecting the dots from address to impact. Now we are learning chords and phrases instead of just individual notes. As someone here has told me, Mod 8+ we start learning to play the whole song.
User avatar
LesMurray
 
Posts: 1192
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:32 pm
Location: Burbank, CA

Re: Daniel Coyle. The Talent Code

Postby norcalvol » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:24 am

Mod 1 and 2 plus Mod 3 equals P3 through impact to finish. Minus the takeaway and transition, that's nearly all the important parts. And since Mod 3 drills can include a recoil from the finish back to P3, a modified recoil -- starting at address rather than PV5 -- taking you through Mod 1/2 and then Mod 3, can definitely be incorporated as a ball-hitting drill, even though it is not taught as such. I think all of the basic tenants of Mod 2 and Mod 3 can be incorporated into a full swing without lessons involving the actual striking of a ball.

Kind of like being given pieces of a puzzle (at this point) with the intelligence of how to put them together yourself... a little bit at a time along the way.

I think it is a metamorphism over time.

On the subject of teaching old dogs new tricks... that can be a difficult thing. Yes it can. But I believe success (however one wants to define that for themselves) comes down to five basic requirements: great teachings (check), a great teacher (check), a willing/able/patient student with the time to put in the requisite amount of work (so far so good), the right timing in one's life cycle which in part defines the receptiveness of the student (I may not have been receptive to ABS at a different point in my life... in fact, I'm sure of that), and a supportive overall structure (i.e., the ABS Forum, emails with Lag, etc.).

I honestly have no set goals for myself if and when I come out the other side of this. I choose to be very optimistic about the future quality of my play because of what I have experienced over the last few months. But perhaps more important, the level of the simple enjoyment of this game has already increased for me exponentially.
Accelerate forever!
User avatar
norcalvol
 
Posts: 490
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:01 pm
Location: Bay Area, California

Re: Daniel Coyle. The Talent Code

Postby TheCrow » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:33 am

Personally, I felt while in Mod 3 that my current swing was hurt more than it was helped in terms of results on the course. Mod 3 so far has been my most frustrating module. But I attribute this to the fact that my body had no concept of pivot. And, while I drilled on Mod 3 the longest, my execution of such was far from perfect as Mod 4 is disclosing. However, something about how the Mod 4 drill works has triggered something in me that makes my Mod 3 execution much better - far from perfect, but much better.

Does this not eat at you a little bit? or do just tell yourself that at some point it will all just fall in to place? I only ask because it is the greatest struggle I've experienced in golf. If told before you started that you would not see improved scores until Mod 8+ would you have started?

"Kind of like being given pieces of a puzzle (at this point) with the intelligence of how to put them together yourself... a little bit at a time along the way."

I get that figuring it out on your own and having some light bulb go off is probably the best way to learn. However, the problem for me and golf is that you can hit it like you could only dream during a range session and then go play and chunk it with 120 yards to a 6000 sq foot green, you're left questioning if you ever really had it and why it went so horribly wrong. Whatever it was you WERE doing has vanished and your subconscious does not tell your conscious what it just did to mess you up. So does the puzzle ever get solved? Am I ever sure the pieces are in the right place? Or are these questions irrelevant? And I should just accept each shot, good or bad for what it is and simply exist in the moment?

"I honestly have no set goals for myself if and when I come out the other side of this."

This really surprises me. I almost question if I'm the whale in the room because the only reason I can fathom why someone would spend the money and drill everyday is to lower their scores. If you finish the modules and you're still shooting the same scores as when you started would you not pull your hair out? Would you not feel like you wasted countless hours of your life? There is the possibility that drilling is like meditation and is enjoyable in and of itself. I could get that but personally the expectation to improve in a significant way is the only thing that keeps me going.

Talent is something that I don't really believe in. I think that situational advantage and the ability to deliberately practice beyond one's current ability usually results in an increased skill level. However, golf is starting to convince me that there are exceptions ;)
TheCrow
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:29 am

Re: Daniel Coyle. The Talent Code

Postby LesMurray » Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:19 am

TheCrow wrote:Does this not eat at you a little bit? or do just tell yourself that at some point it will all just fall in to place? I only ask because it is the greatest struggle I've experienced in golf. If told before you started that you would not see improved scores until Mod 8+ would you have started?


Trust me, I've had plenty of doubts about this. But I also have heard from several members here that real progress doesn't show up until about a year into the program. But I will also reiterate that at the beginning of Mod 3 I saw some glimpses of improvement. Then I think I tried too hard to force it into my swing. Also, here at the start of Mod 4 I am again seeing a glimpse of what my golf swing could become. I am also beginning to feel like I know what is driving my golf swing and where it can go wrong.

TheCrow wrote:However, the problem for me and golf is that you can hit it like you could only dream during a range session and then go play and chunk it with 120 yards to a 6000 sq foot green, you're left questioning if you ever really had it and why it went so horribly wrong.


Oh yeah - been there done that. How can I go one hole making an easy par and then the very next hole hitting a 9 by doing the very same thing? I have even sent John and Bradley emails asking what the heck is my problem. Their basic response is patience. The one thing that I keep reminding myself is that in these early modules I am like a car with no engine, transmission, or steering. The early mods help you get the new engine put in, then the steering, and then finally the transmission.

I do have a couple of defined goals to reach in this program - namely first to break 80 and at some point be a scratch golfer. If Mod 4 continues to bring the improvements to my swing as it has already, then I think the first goal should be easily attainable in short order.
User avatar
LesMurray
 
Posts: 1192
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:32 pm
Location: Burbank, CA

Re: Daniel Coyle. The Talent Code

Postby norcalvol » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:57 pm

Crow,

You raise great questions related to inner struggles.

Does this not eat at you a little bit? or do just tell yourself that at some point it will all just fall in to place? I only ask because it is the greatest struggle I've experienced in golf. If told before you started that you would not see improved scores until Mod 8+ would you have started?


So does the puzzle ever get solved? Am I ever sure the pieces are in the right place? Or are these questions irrelevant? And I should just accept each shot, good or bad for what it is and simply exist in the moment?


I almost question if I'm the whale in the room because the only reason I can fathom why someone would spend the money and drill everyday is to lower their scores. If you finish the modules and you're still shooting the same scores as when you started would you not pull your hair out? Would you not feel like you wasted countless hours of your life? There is the possibility that drilling is like meditation and is enjoyable in and of itself. I could get that but personally the expectation to improve in a significant way is the only thing that keeps me going.


When I was a teenager and in my 20s, I broke par a few times, had a hdcp as low as 3, and played competitively (HS golf team, city and county tournaments after that). But I wasn't really a competitive person when it came to golf. I just loved to play. Me and my homemade swing with the opportunities provided by my dad. But I didn't care about the golf swing, what made it function well, etc. I didn't work at the game. Never took a lesson. I didn't want to be anything in particular. I just wanted to play with people that I liked and I wanted to have fun. I knew people that had taken the game up in their 20s, 30s, or 40s for the first time and were reading books about the swing and really working hard at it --- all of that amused me because I didn't relate to the game in that way.

The greatest struggle I ever experienced in golf was moving to California 25 years ago. I had lived in places where it was easy to just walk on a course and play 9 after work or 18 late on a Saturday, then finding that out here in golf dreamland I had to plan my life in advance in order to spend 5+ hours playing 18. That, and other things, simply drove me from the game. I used to ask myself why playing a round of golf has to be such an event that you have to plan. So, I put my clubs in the garage and touched them maybe once or twice a year (if that) for more than 10 years. I had flirtations with the game after that... 15 years ago I started playing regularly once again - the day after Tiger Woods won his first Masters... that lasted for about 2 years (I was able to break 80 but not 70), followed by 10+ more years away from the game. Now I'm back again (one year and counting), this time at the urging of my wife who knows me like the back of my hand. She tends to know what is good for me, and she just said to me one day: "You need to play golf again. You always enjoyed it and weren't too bad at it either. So go play."

I'm a lot older now, and enjoying the game as much as I did when I was young, but in a different way.

When I stumbled upon this Forum, I started getting curious about a lot of things in golf for the first time (mid-life crisis?). In the questionnaire that I sent Lag when I applied to become a student, my stated goal (from memory - my computer was stolen this past week) was to get a glimpse of what my potential might be at this point in my life, but that I needed a well-thought-out, cohesive, structured program to do that. I could just do what I always did --- just play and play and play (and maybe have a good time doing that), but for some reason I felt like I'd like somebody qualified to show me who I am as a golfer and guide me to see how good perhaps I could be now (and even perhaps how good I could have been decades ago had I really applied myself to the game). But I sure as hell wasn't going down to the local track and waste my time with lessons from the local teacher.

And I knew better than trying to do that myself. I'm not that structured of a person... I tend to get distracted and devolve into dilitantism about a lot of things and then just move on to something else. So I've learned to trust the process of learning something in a profound way and keep moving forward without worrying about where I'm going (unless it's something that I'm trying to make a living at -- golf is not in that category). But you first have to convince yourself that the process is worthy over the long haul. Even if you do convince yourself, it's still a bit of a jump into the pool even if you don't know how to swim.

ABS gives me great structure and specific things to work on, things that I can apply along the way as I see fit, but things that have a purpose within a bigger picture for further down the road. I've convinced myself of this. So its pretty much up to me. All I can do is do it all, but one step at a time. If I don't approach it this way, it's just back to dabbling. But that is just me.

I've lived through the life-game of expectations - in golf and other aspects - and I've learned that I don't function that well when I set concrete expectations. For me, they get in the way. I'm not saying that having specific goals is a bad thing at all. Yes, I want to play better, score better. Yes, I would love to break par again. But what I'm saying is that if I set those and let them create massive expectations, they will cloud the whole experience of this path that I've put myself on --- that's from my experience... I'm sure multitudes can do both at the same time. I'm loving every minute of working on drills and making videos that look like something from Monty Python's Flying Circus (seriously - haven't you laughed at watching yourself going from P4 to PV5? It's hysterical.). I'm loving trying to play and swing a club by applying a whole new set of intentions. I've already seen improvement --- I never could hit a 2-iron, but now I can, surprisingly well -- and one from 1952 at that.

I'll stop here and apologize for the ramble. But I did it to kind of relate a point: Crow, you are not the only one with inner struggles with this. I have them too, but it's just that mine are probably of a different variety than yours. We are all different, but I'll bet there are scores of students with what you are thinking/experiencing. I'm sure you are not the only whale in the room.
Accelerate forever!
User avatar
norcalvol
 
Posts: 490
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:01 pm
Location: Bay Area, California

Re: Daniel Coyle. The Talent Code

Postby TheCrow » Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:22 am

No apology required Norcal! I enjoyed the read and it was good to get another perspective.

Crow, you are not the only one with inner struggles with this. I have them too, but it's just that mine are probably of a different variety than yours. We are all different, but I'll bet there are scores of students with what you are thinking/experiencing.


I probably should have gone directly to Bradley about my struggles. I assume that is what everyone else is doing. And Les has admitted he has done exactly that. I'm guilty of seeking out other people to commiserate with. The reason I took the leap of faith on the drill series is reading all of the success stories. Now that I'm in it, I started to wonder why there aren't more posts expressing frustration. Maybe there are in the private area. Ultimately I know that my improvement is on me. If I never get to where I want to go, I hope I can look back and say I worked hard and tried my best. I completely believe that what John and Brad teach is the truth and the best way to strike a golf ball. However, just holding that belief doesn't mean that I'm entitled to doing it well. Golf can and should be enjoyed for more than just a score. I just have to remind myself of that.

Learning something new is one of the most enjoyable experiences I can have. So regardless of age, and one's talent potential, I really think people should keep learning. Becoming elite might not be in the cards but the learning experience itself will enrich one's life forever.
TheCrow
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:29 am

Re: Daniel Coyle. The Talent Code

Postby LesMurray » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:34 pm

Commiserate away. Sometimes I think it helps to let others know about our struggles if anything to let others know they are not alone. Like you I was reading about a lot of success in the different modules yet I was seeing very little of that same success.

Maybe a thread called - dim lightbulbs and no light at the end of the tunnel lol
User avatar
LesMurray
 
Posts: 1192
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:32 pm
Location: Burbank, CA

Re: Daniel Coyle. The Talent Code

Postby norcalvol » Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:48 pm

TheCrow wrote:?.. but the learning experience itself will enrich one's life forever.


That's how I look at ABS and this wonderful game now. Throughout my life, I've noticed that the happiest people are the most curious people and those willing to learn something in a way that pushes through their comfort zones.

Golf is a bottomless well of opportunity for learning. I'm finding that golf is more fun than ever because I'm on a learning curve that is pretty steep. I wish this was around decades ago. But at least we've found it.
Accelerate forever!
User avatar
norcalvol
 
Posts: 490
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:01 pm
Location: Bay Area, California

PreviousNext

Return to Instructional Books

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron