Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby Range Rat » Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:52 am

Do you ever come back east ??

Sure, that is the right side of deck? :lol:
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Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby norcalvol » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:48 am

Once again, I'm quite new to this forum, and somewhat new to basic concepts that are the center of discussion here, but I have a question about the 4:30 slot...
Is this position held with equal value for swingers as for hitters? i.e., is this a universal concept in golf?
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Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby Range Rat » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:54 am

norcalvol wrote:Once again, I'm quite new to this forum, and somewhat new to basic concepts that are the center of discussion here, but I have a question about the 4:30 slot...
Is this position held with equal value for swingers as for hitters? i.e., is this a universal concept in golf?


Yes, give me another with extra onions please! Pretty much spot on in terms of universal concept, however a big area of discussion sometimes rests with whether or not there is some measure of verticality- from ground up- within the process. So yes, it is a path, route, corridor, whatever one chooses to label it but, and for some it could be a big butt, the question is where does, should, or could the corridor start....up high, down low, or somewhere nicely settled between the two if we use an elevator for an example. Do we descend from the top to our destination, or descend to our destination from two floors above.

But then the discussion turns to gear; palm up, palm down; with our without forearm rotation ( but the forearm will ALWAYS have some rotation to it ); or is it a steep attack from a shallow entry, or a shallow attack from a steeper entry.

Interesting puzzle..... ;)
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Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby norcalvol » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:08 am

OK. So based on my viewing of videos of golf swings labeled as hitters and swingers, it appears that the hitters are for the most part starting to enter the slot from a lower point than the swingers.
But it is interesting that there is an in-between case --- perhaps a hybrid between the two swing types (pardon the modern equipment pun)... ???

I am now (without having signed up for module work, yet) working on a couple of things --- maintaining wrist angle (more consciously than before), starting to enter the slot from a lower position, and using the pivot in a more pronounced way (it feels like I have to be more pivot focused in order to hit the ball with a lower entry point ---- everything 'feels' lower - don't know how else to say it). All I can say, without any video, is that I feel more athletic and less worried about any impulse to hit the ball. Also, because I am allowing myself to have a tighter grip (focusing primarily on the trigger-finger pressure point), I feel more natural ---- I can feel a glimpse of myself of 25+ years ago. My strikes are much more solid, and the ball flight is lower with more of a slight draw w/o even trying to draw the ball...
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Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby Range Rat » Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:43 pm

Just about anything can be hybridized, but mostly the difference I was referring to is in proportions, and how we see it. Even Hogan said things would look different based on sizes of people, and things like that- that's what I meant by 'between' mostly..... however, one can change things up in the rough and steepen a touch if needed too, or just to alter things as needed, so that changes what one sees too. :)
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Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby DElder » Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:15 am

In constructing my swing ( a work in process) I found Lag's posts highly relevant and insightful, and have gained better understanding listening to Bradley Hughes videos on hitting as well. It all makes sense except I don't buy that hitting action provides both power and consistency and I am not clear on exactly how ABS intends for the clubhead to come through the ball.


Hitting Scenario 1: The clubhead is quickly rotated from open to square and arrives at the ball square. The full release is held off so the face remains square to the swing arc until well after impact: usually until the hands disappear around the corner.

Hitting Scenario 2: The clubhead is quickly closing as it comes through the ball. Again the full release is held off until well after impact.


Hitting Scenario 3: The same mechanics as Scenario 1 except the right arm punches through impact so the arm is not as bent post impact as in Scenario 1 and 2.


If scenario 1 describes the the hitting action then the rotation of the clubhead (via supination of the left forearm) can provide no additional clubhead speed through impact because the release is stalled prior to impact. The ball doesn't care what the club is doing before and after impact. The "feel" of the forearms powering the swing is just the effort it takes to keep up with the hip/torso rotation so you don't hit the ball with an open face. The faster the hips/torso and the shallower the shaft through release the more effort you need to square up the club, thus the correlation between fast forearm rotation ( hitting) and distance the ball flys.

If scenario 2 better describes the hitting action then the clubhead rotation is indeed providing additional power through impact. But if this is the case then timing of the release is at least as important as it is with a swinging style where the wrists rollover after impact. And because hitting requires active use of the hands it is more difficult to time than with a swinging action that uses the wrists as passive hinges and lets centrifugal force square the face. So I can't see how this hitting action provides more consistency.

Scenario 3 seems to me to provide the benefits of Scenario 1 with some added power that would have little impact on clubhead alignment and therefore consistency since it is a pushing action not a torque action. But this action, if I am not mistaken, is not part of ABS recommended hitting style.


If indeed hitting does provide more consistency than swinging - at least left to right dispersion, then I think it would require a Scenario 1, or perhaps 3, approach and this consistency comes from a shallow plane through release and to a lesser extent due to a held off release and a firmer connection to the body -making the club less susceptible to face deflection during off center hits. The defining features of "hitting" swing mechanics are to support release through a shallow plane. Because of the shorter swing arc with a "hitting" action you need fast hips to make up for lost distance and you need fast wrists/forearms to square up the club prior to impact. But you are really hitting with your hips so if you ain't got the hips you ain't got the distance regardless of what you do with your hands. Hogan probably wanted "three right hands" because his hips could outpace his hands.

My guess is that there are hitters in all three scenarios. All other things being equal, Scenario 1 hitters have lower dispersion and Scenario 2 players hit the ball farther.

Getting back to my swing. I currently take the club away in the shaft plane, bring it up to the elbow plane and then swing all the way down through the elbow plane. I have a held off release (x-ray of a hitter) and hips that rotate aggressively through impact and beyond. But my release is passive, not the active forearms of a hitter's release and the shaft comes down steeper than a hitters. Is there any advantage to "Hitting" if you release through the elbow plane instead of the shaft plane?



I welcome your thoughts.
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Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby Range Rat » Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:00 am

The ball doesn't care what the club is doing before and after impact.


As long as personalities are being doled out, the club cares about what it is doing while paying no never mind to the ball.
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Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby lagpressure » Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:59 am

DElder

If you are watching the World Series, it's clear that a pitchers arm (RH) reaches back toward first base before finding some kind of inline plane just before release of the baseball. You can't think of the golf swing either as swinging the club in 2D.

From what I gather by reading your interpretation of release, you are thinking in 2D rather than 3D.

A pitcher's arm moves back and into the 3rd dimension, and a golfer should be doing the same with the clubshaft. The forearm rotation is the vehicle here that delivers the shaft back into "plane" right at the last split second. It's best to think of the right shoulder doing the majority of the work of squaring up the clubface through the strike. If the torso accelerates properly post impact, the hands can't flip over or roll over because the left shoulder is out pacing the forearm rotation.

Once you understand this, it will clear up your misconceptions. But it's hard to really digest this without experiencing it within the body. Swinging lacks hand pressure and feel through the strike because of the lack of acceleration. That is why swingers tend to focus more on backswing, position at the top and initial transition. All the ducks have to be aligned for the passive free wheeling throw into impact. Swing and hope.

A hitter is taking control of the club from start to finish and the intentions are always focused on post impact to keep acceleration on the front burner. Pressuring the shaft laterally through the strike is a completely different set of goals and objectives.
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