Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby Prot » Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:17 am

I have read, and re-read the article several times.

I have to be honest even though I've read about the differences between swinging and hitting several times from several sources, the article definitely sums it up in a neat package meant for a 'magazine' audience.

I think this article makes me actually want to experiment with swinging. I have noticed the more I understand about swinging, the more defined hitting becomes for me. Like for instance (and I'm still not sure I understand this) the face closes with the swinger from a very open position via centrifugal force. The hitter is pushing hard with the right arm and actively 'hitting' with the hands, and the pivot. So it seems for the first time I am seeing the swinger really doesn't do so much with the hands.

I've since gone on to read a few of my sources for hitting and swinging and I come back to this article. I do find it funny that Lag presents both as equals in this article but I'd say that isn't so on this forum. ;)

I wonder if the swinger is relying on C.F. so much for so many things to happen (speed, face alignment, etc) then is it fair to say the hitter relies more on presenting a flat left wrist into impact? Or is it just that the swinger is less 'active' in making that happen?

After investigating I think I am finally understanding why a swinger might hit further, with less effort. Not only is it a muscle vs C.F. issue, but also the hitter relies so heavily on saving that right arm, whereas I think the swinger is merrily spending it right down from the start of the downswing.

BUT in the end lag IS lag. I used to be such a HUGE fan of Vijay. And here is a swinger with the shaft of his driver nearly touching his right shoulder on the way down (He has so much lag there!) And in the other corner we have K.J. Choi, a hitter who almost starts his down swing with a bit of a cast move!

Even though I heard it a million times, I think I understand now why a swinger easily goes to the top -for a reason- and gets to parallel (or beyond). And why a hitter doesn't seem to get much from going higher than shoulder length. (I personally have always preferred not going above the shoulder, but didn't know why).

Maybe I'm covering too much ground for a single post on the subject, but some of these are thoughts I've had for a long time but some of them are starting to make more sense now. (It's easy to repeat things you read, but understanding them is a whole different matter).

On that note I am flashing back to my summer with Mr.Pro and how he had so much trouble telling me if he was hitting a draw or a fade. As a bona fide swinger he would just say I'm going to the range and seeing what happens. This NOW in my mind is a result of a violent rotation that happens so late in the swing, and continues through the throughswing. A hitter may use rotation of the face as well and it may even happen just as late in the swing, but the difference is the hitter is presenting a square face, to-and-beyond impact. Never flipping over.

Just thoughts that your article made me look at Lag.
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Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby Go Low » Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:48 am

Prot wrote:BUT in the end lag IS lag. I used to be such a HUGE fan of Vijay. And here is a swinger with the shaft of his driver nearly touching his right shoulder on the way down (He has so much lag there!) And in the other corner we have K.J. Choi, a hitter who almost starts his down swing with a bit of a cast move!


Ernie Els also starts his downswing with the same type move as K.J. Choi. In fact, many of the tour pros do. Is The Big Easy a swinger or hitter?
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Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby Go Low » Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:25 am

Take a look at how David Toms' clubhead moves in the same way as K.J. Choi's clubhead.

Here's a link for some tour player's swings (side and back view) in slow motion: http://www.pgatour.com/swingplex/
"Reverse every natural instinct and do the opposite of what you are inclined to do, and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing." Ben Hogan
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Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby macs » Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:00 am

Prot
I think you are still mixing some of TGM hitting concepts with what Lag calls ABS hitting. ABS hitting is the pinnacle of golfing motion. Amongst the students here only Robbo and Cheese Donkey have reached something close (we dont know the latest about Parker and Aguille). On the tour Jim Furyk comes close to it but he still uses a more punch elbow position. For some of us the pinnacle may never be achievable but one can reach to something in between and ( with some manipulation of the plane line) still play reasonable golf. By the time you can call any one an ABS hitter, he will be a top tier ball striker. And he may still make a swing that falls short of an ABS hit.
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Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby joniindo » Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:10 am

Amongst the students here only Robbo and Cheese Donkey have reached something close (we dont know the latest about Parker and Aguille)

What about TwoMaster? :D
Don't trust the mainstream media
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Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby macs » Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:30 am

I personally have not seen TM's swing recently to comment on how far he has undone the damage done by "look good" golf instruction.
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Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby Prot » Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:39 pm

macs wrote:Prot
I think you are still mixing some of TGM hitting concepts with what Lag calls ABS hitting. ABS hitting is the pinnacle of golfing motion. Amongst the students here only Robbo and Cheese Donkey have reached something close (we dont know the latest about Parker and Aguille). On the tour Jim Furyk comes close to it but he still uses a more punch elbow position. For some of us the pinnacle may never be achievable but one can reach to something in between and ( with some manipulation of the plane line) still play reasonable golf. By the time you can call any one an ABS hitter, he will be a top tier ball striker. And he may still make a swing that falls short of an ABS hit.


Oh really? But all that I know really comes from Lag. And I can tell you one thing.... I did not know this had changed but I can tell you for certain that it was VERY acceptable to be punching into impact. I have notes and emails with lag to prove it. If things have changed, that may very well be.

Choi hits. Or so I've heard. Ernie swings, or so I'm told. I never thought of Ernie as a caster, but Choi is certainly noted for it amongst greater minds than mine. My point was, hitting or swinging, it would seem lag is pretty important with either concept.
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Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby lagpressure » Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:23 pm

certainly a lot of stuff here to clean up..
any chance of 5 or so questions formatted in an orderly fashion I can address them without jumping from one subject to another?

I won't have any trouble clearing things up...
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Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby Lefthook » Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:24 pm

lag,

For an ultra high handicapper shopper like myself it was impossible to find Golf Illustrated in October. I looked for it in every shop I was, but since I only frequent Walmart and some other food chain that I can't recollect the name of right now - I never found the magazine.

Is it possible for you to post a PDF version of the article here on ABS?

I would almost think that the GI publisher would be OK with a special "print" of this article published here on ABS.
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Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby macs » Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:19 pm

Oh really? But all that I know really comes from Lag. And I can tell you one thing.... I did not know this had changed but I can tell you for certain that it was VERY acceptable to be punching into impact. I have notes and emails with lag to prove it. If things have changed, that may very well be.

Choi hits. Or so I've heard. Ernie swings, or so I'm told. I never thought of Ernie as a caster, but Choi is certainly noted for it amongst greater minds than mine. My point was, hitting or swinging, it would seem lag is pretty important with either concept.


Prot I remember your thoughts from 2 yrs ago on the other forum. Stuff like punching the midget in the face etc. While I can not speak for Lag I think his thinking into the ABS hitting has solidified as compared to that time. I think at that time he had recently changed his lies to 6 degrees flat and that is at the core of the ABS hitting. Without that getting this deep may be trouble. Also, at that time he was still keeping things mild not to stirr the hosts.
I think we do need a thread about ABS "Hitting VS Swinging" because I believe the GI article itself was aimed at the general golfing public and way basic for the chronics here (may be there is one somewhere here).
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