Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby macs » Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:33 pm

The TGM hitting is so well entrenched as a term and yet at polar opposites to ABS. I really believe that Lag calling ABS a hitting procedure does a disservice. We know its a golf swing from a very deep slot (P3) that encompasses the hand hit because it can. Call it "Deep Swing"; "Soul Swing" "Advanced Swing" or an "ABS Golf Motion". How about AGM (Advanced Golf Motion) :D. But IMO dont call it "Hitting" as it creates a lot of confusing discussion. Lets look at it this way. What is the evolutionary pathway leading to ABS? Swinging or TGM Hitting? I think you inch up in various steps through a path that along the way looks more like TGM swinging. From a TGM hitting plateform you will never morph into ABS.
And while I am on this rant, let me express something that I havent had the courage so far as I am not an expert on TGM or the BOOK. In my opinion the closest Homer came to an ABS motion may be right hand swinging" . I am back into my armour so go ahead, shoot me.
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Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby lagpressure » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:49 pm

If this is a TGM right arm swing... then what would a TGM "right arm only swing" be where the right arm passively straightens post impact as fundamentally taught in TGM? Ultra swing?
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Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby macs » Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:38 pm

Some TGM expert bail me out but I think Right Arm swinging is described as with an extrememly Pitched elbow which ectually becomes the fulcrum of the swing and not the left shoulder. I have been thinking about this. In ABS with our upper arms packed onto the chest the shoulders are actually not the fulcrum of the swing. Its kind of like the swing fulcrum is the right elbow from P3 to post impact; then the left elbow upto P4 and only after P4 the left shoulder becomes the fulcrum when the arms fly off the chest. I think that is also the reason the low point is so much related to the bent right elbow.
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Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby Parker » Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:30 pm

macs wrote: ABS hitting is the pinnacle of golfing motion. Amongst the students here only Robbo and Cheese Donkey have reached something close (we dont know the latest about Parker and Aguille)


Sorry i haven't visited the forum in some time. I've taken a few months off of golf after a long and aggressive effort to play on the mini tour, and then a ramp-up in my business. As for Macs' post, i'm not sure i'll ever reach the pinnacle. I know my GIR's have improved a lot, but "pinnacle"? I think there are only a handfull of golfers on this planet who reached the pinnacle. Here is my swing from april and august... I don't really have anything more recent. My plan is to get back to training/practicing a lot again in February:





As for my time with ABS prior to my recent break, I just worked VERY HARD on the mods, and play competitive rounds as much as possible. I've come to find that what i'm feeling from the modules and in the swing are a bit different than others' opinions, so i just try to keep it as simple as possible--much less cerebral.

But about three months ago I had my worst rounds since starting ABS, and realized it correlated with over thinking things. I usually never over-think and then I found myself WAY over analyzing on the course, and in turn, I had a couple rounds in the 80's during some critical rounds that kind of demoralized me.

Before this break, ABS had significantly improved my GIR's, and I was playing my best golf. In attempt to keep this post concise, I'd say the primary difference (which is a result of many different things lag has taught me to significantly increase my pivot speed and hand strength) in my current swing is that I have NO RIGHT ARM action in the impact area, but plenty of right hand action. Prior to this it was the opposite: my right arm was very active, yet my right hand was dead--it was almost completely off of the club at impact.
“If you can’t outplay them, outwork them.”
-Ben Hogan (1912–1997)
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Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby Prot » Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:36 pm

That's a very good thing to note.

I have been in a groove where I have good right arm action. And after some time, I'll notice I lost it. I immediately have to go back to slow mod 1 work and note a bent right arm into the bag. I think trying to kill it leaves me with this issue. Personally if my arms are 'trying too hard' then my pivot won't be in position to act as a launch pad for the right arm and the right arm has left the building.

I think you have a very nice looking iron swing Parker. It takes balls to put it up on the forum. Good for you. ;)
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Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby Parker » Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:44 pm

yep, my arms don't do anything until my pivot is spent--all pivot and hands.

Right arm action before p4 would be an accuracy killer in my ABS swing.

My mini slump was all putting... my head got in the way... i had weeks of nightmares involving poa annua grass and wishing putting didn't count in this wonderful game---haha, i wish i was kidding. funny thing is that putting used to be my best stat.
“If you can’t outplay them, outwork them.”
-Ben Hogan (1912–1997)
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Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby Prot » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:03 pm

I just want to say that you do seem very confident with what you're doing which I think is excellent, but one thing you said really rings true to me... the less cerebral aspect of it all.

I think if there's something I get lost in on this site, and ABS in general is when people analyze the be-jesus out of... .where your left testicle is at PV5 or something similar. Of course I'm making that up but that's sort of the stuff I got stuck on myself. So when you say you're not very cerebral about it.... well I think deep down I'm very much the same way.

When things are going bad for me, I will do a module and a really basic feel comes out of that, and if I can replicate that really basic thing... then I think 9 times out of 10 I'm usually doing better because of it.

Don't get me wrong, I know some people here really know what Homer Kelley's stuff and Lag's stuff. But when I flash back to things Lag got me going on that worked... it just seemed so simple, and I read some of these posts and their just way too analytical for me.... and therefore pointless because if I get muddled in that stuff I lose.

It's a very good point you bring to the table, and it's why I mostly just lurk now. I find stuff on my own now, and it is very basic. I play with very tiny moves now, and discard the poop and move on. I think this honestly is the first time I can recall someone saying that they keep it as simple as possible.. period. That's where I'm at.

P.S.
As for Poa Annua I can relate to a degree (though I'm no pro player). I consider myself an excellent putter, and I play at two main course. One is PGA-ish on the stimp and has some great bent grass. I love it. I average 28 putts there.... the other is Poa and I can't stand it. It completely screws my confidence. I think it makes me putt differently because I'm putting on cotton... so I just slam it to the hole. I don't know, but I can't stand it. I quit the course. lol! (true)
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Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby Prot » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:05 pm

Let me ask you one other thing Parker....

At my best with ABS I was hitting extremely straight, but shorter with the driver because I really did not use my arms. I've always had a strong (too strong) Pivot, but removing my arms hurt my driver play. Was there an adjustment for you in driver, or distance, or any comment on that sort of thing as you transition to ABS? (For instance, I started hitting driver MUCH lower)... anything you could tell us about that sort of thing? or was it a very easy transition for you with a modern driver?
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Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby kafka01 » Sun May 01, 2011 2:25 pm

Lag,

in some posts you talk about how overly stiff shafts are okay for control. When tinkering around with overly stiff shafts i had less problems loading them when using more of a hitters approach than i did with a swingers approach (it always feels that when swinging and my shafts are too stiff i cant get a proper strike on the ball due to problems loading the shaft in the first place). Whats your take on that? Would you say that a swinger should have a shaft stiffness that is more accurate for his swing speed than a hitter who can handle a bigger variance?
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Re: Golf Illustrated Oct 2010 Hitting vs Swinging

Postby lagpressure » Sun May 01, 2011 3:28 pm

You are correct.

Swingers, have are faced with the difficult task of being required to time the straightening of the shaft precisely at impact. To do this effectively, they need to be able to not only feel the clubhead, but the movement of the shaft also (flex)
Looser shafts allow much more feel and tolerance for a swinger.. but the flip side is that a loose shaft if not delivered properly can wreak all kinds of havoc on the golf ball. If you are going to swing.. then there are some good practice clubs like that "Orange Shaft" that will teach you how to wait and feel the whip of the shaft at the bottom.

Hogan said he hated feeling any play in the shaft at all.. of course he was a hitter. He also played tipped X shafts even into his 70's.

Popular opinion is that X shaft are only for long or powerful hitters.. but I disagree.
A stiff shaft will offer better support to the clubhead to resist the forces of impact. It puts more precision feel into your hands just after impact... and they are less likely to ever feel wobbly or out of control at anytime.. but the most important factor is that they are going to offer better DISTANCE control. Loose shafts can sometimes give you that super flyer that sails over the green into usually a very undesirable recovery attempt.

Think of it this way..
Long hitters put in X shafts.. but they usually also put them into their short irons.. which means they are going to be playing pitch shots, chip shots, even bunker shots with them also. Knock downs and less than full shots are going to be played. These shots are the same intensity shots played by weaker players.

If your only objective is distance, and you want to be one of those players that brags about how you hit PW from 150,
then you should swing and use loose shafts :? ... but any serious refined player should be looking at moving into stiffer shafts, and better yet into heavier heads.. and if you really want to hit it straight.. flatter lie angles also.
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