Flat vs Upright

Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby LesMurray » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:05 pm

k2baloo wrote:Took the eye 2s to the range. Didn't like them too much, but the SW is a great club. I could game that. The long irons we ironically hard to hit IMO.


I checked out Top Golf in Las Vegas this week. Fun way to get some range time in. I didn't have my clubs so I used what was in the stall. Basically some generic Calloways. I tried to hit the 3 hybrid and it was basically unplayable for me. Between the upright lie and the offset everything was hooking off the planet.

I remember trying out the Ping Eye 2s back when they just came out. My recollection is that they were easy to hit but that I couldn't feel a thing. And the offset was almost 1/2 inch. I think according to their fitting chart I was an Orange dot guy.
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Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby paradigm_shift » Wed May 17, 2017 10:30 am

I've been playing older Macgregor Colokrom sets that haven't been modified and I seem to flush the long irons. The short irons seem to feel much more upright to me with the toe sticking up. I think I remember reading somewhere here they Hogan and ABS protocol usually require more bending of the short irons so we can attack aggressively with only a slight cut in mind.


Is this true and a likely case with my Colokrom irons ?
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Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby lagpressure » Fri May 26, 2017 3:53 pm

paradigm_shift wrote:I've been playing older Macgregor Colokrom sets that haven't been modified and I seem to flush the long irons. The short irons seem to feel much more upright to me with the toe sticking up. I think I remember reading somewhere here they Hogan and ABS protocol usually require more bending of the short irons so we can attack aggressively with only a slight cut in mind.


Is this true and a likely case with my Colokrom irons ?


Sounds like they need some work.
It is true that short irons will by nature be more upright because they have much shorter shaft lengths. Taking all that into account, the toe should not be sticking up with the short irons. I'd get them worked on, and also try to get any offset out of them.
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Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby Stu Carlburger » Mon May 29, 2017 9:17 pm

Hi guys!

I wanted to share a thought.

As my ABS action has evolved, I've come to embrace flat lie angles to the point that it has become THE guiding principle of my golf game. Humor me chaps while I explain and expound.

First, a bit of background to how this developed. Like most everyone working ABS I've got my heavy, flat blades. I'm drilling and working the pressures and although I don't play often (enough) I'm able to hit into a net in the back yard to at least get a sense of contact and a bit of ball flight. The pressures were growing, building, becoming intense as all get out, and convtsct was improving steadily. But, I noticed something odd from time to time. On what FELT like my absolute BEST ABS action I'd get the most jarring and horrible heel chunk with a near topped left flight. Then, I got the same result on the course.

It's was then that I started to visualize the ABS protocols and lie angles in a very different way. The action we're all working toward requires flat lies, we know this. But, how flat? This is unknown as we don't really know just how low and around we can deliver that club. That's when it dawned on me. When we do it right, when we progress, but our gear is too upright, we instinctively back off because a heavy heel chunk is not a playable shot. Ball flight, as we're always told, tells us everything and that ball flight is TERRIBLE. But is it really?

There's such a powerful "golf cultural pressure" 'of sorts where we're taught not to blame the equipment -- it's the Indian not the arrow kinda thing. Hit a heavy, horrible, low and left shot -- even though everything except impact felt like the epitome of what you've drilled so hard -- and it MUST be because you're doing it wrong! We've all overcome that pressure when we're dealing with a club we know to be too upright -- it's clear, and we know we have to make adjustments and raise the handle/time the rotation of the clubface. But, what about a club we know is flattened but we think/assume it's "flat enough?"

This is a classic "Type II Error"-- "concluding the means were not different when in reality they were different ..." Personally, I push the limits of technique -- can I actually LOWER my hands into impact? -- knowing that doing so is the only way to make significant changes. But, that lie angle is basically a roadblock impeding all progress forward -- both figuratively AND literally. Is it possible to get too flat? Of course, but if we know that the lie (perhaps more than anything else) dictate the action into and through the strike, it stands to reason that we all should aim to err on the side of too flat.

We CAN make a proper ABS swing with a lie that's too upright but it won't produce anything even remotely resembling good contact nor ball flight. But, if the lie is too flat, at least it encourages us to push our technique to its fullest rather than basically taking the easy way out and dumping everything to at least not get the heavy heel chunk. This is my issue with modern driver lies -- it SHOULD be the flattest club in the bag! Basically, you don't want to make a proper ABS with them!

So, I'm going to flatten my vintage gear until I get the line on the dynamic lie test pointing heelward ever so slightly, and then push myself to see if I can get it to be perfectly vertical!

Rant over!

Thoughts?
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Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby Ded2Journey » Tue May 30, 2017 4:23 am

You write too much...hahaha. As you know, I agree with this very much. Flatter is better, no offset and flatter is more so. As this technique is perfected you begin to realize it's all just one straight line. Thus, the lower your hands are, the easier it is to draw that line with your body. Really well said Stu...but, I still think you can go too flat on wedges. I would say we should narrow this thought down in reference to the 9 iron and up.
"Reverse every natural instinct and do the opposite of what you are inclined to do, and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing." -Ben Hogan
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Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby Stu Carlburger » Tue May 30, 2017 5:27 am

Verbosity is one of my character flaws, and for that, I do apologize!

To me understanding and mastering this dynamic action requires Bobby Jones' concept of "Framing" -- taking one movement (or in the instant case, gear specs) to an extreme in an effort to "set the bar" on one side of the equation. As you know Ded, I've embodied this concept in my golf game. But, in terms of lie angles, the path is blocked if too upright leaving us only one side of the equation to frame.

So much more to say, but you've made me feel so self-conscious!
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Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby LesMurray » Tue May 30, 2017 7:22 am

Stu - how flat have you gotten your clubs so far? I've got one set at 8* flat over the standard 6* flat with all my other clubs. I have a set of buttonbacks that Mike Rees set up for me with X-200 shafts. They are set up to Lag's specs in terms of lie and length. I am on the shorter side height-wise and am finding these clubs a little upright compared to my other sets. I am thinking of sending them back to Mike to flatten to 8* (or shorten another 1/2").

I don't get the heel chunk you were describing, but I do see left coming into play more often than I like with the Buttonbacks. I think as I write this that it may make sense to have Mike tip these another 1/2 inch. The long irons on this set are harder to hit than some of my other sets and it may be due more to length rather than lie angle.
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Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby Ded2Journey » Tue May 30, 2017 8:06 am

Stu Carlburger wrote:Verbosity is one of my character flaws, and for that, I do apologize!

So much more to say, but you've made me feel so self-conscious!


I hear writing your thoughts down is really helpful for this. ;)
"Reverse every natural instinct and do the opposite of what you are inclined to do, and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing." -Ben Hogan
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