Current PGA tour

Re: Current PGA tour

Postby k2baloo » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:07 pm

Definitely didn't play like a US Open - was the easiest course setup in the championship's history.

Brooks played really well though. I saw part of his round today. He hit 62/72 greens - 16, 14, 15, 17 for each of the days. Congrats to him, he was the best player out there this week.
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Re: Current PGA tour

Postby kevinhutto » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:09 pm

The only US Open I can remember in recent history that seemed like a legitimate test was at Merion. And the pros hated it. The game has become like most pro sports - a bunch of big musclebound weight lifters who will have short careers because of the injuries they will sustain due to the way they swing today. Nicklaus' record is safe forever - most of these guys will only have 10 year careers at best (like Tiger).

It is also interesting that Steve Elkington makes a tweet about Rory being content with 4 majors and $100 Million and Rory's reply was that he is worth $200 Million. And Rory was heralded and Elk was made into the bad guy.

These guys on tour don't understand that golf is in trouble. They are in a bubble that is about to pop. Just like all bubbles. People are losing interest. And the USGA thinks that the answer is to try and get people to play 9 holes instead of 18. The answer is to make the game accessible again. Make the heroes seem human and the courses relevant for the average guy. I hate playing these new courses - the only challenge is length. Boring.
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Re: Current PGA tour

Postby Stu Carlburger » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:31 pm

Not to be contrarian, because I agree with you, but the scoring doesn't necessarily bother me too much -- although, it would be nice to once again see par be a benchmark at the US Open.

What bothers me is that how long this guy is or that guy is is ALL anyone ever talks about. It's like we're watching a long drive championship, not a US Open Championship. It's clear to me that the USGA is selecting for one skill and one skill only -- distance -- and talk of 8000 yard courses only confirms that fact. They know for a fact that the ball today has reduced the skill necessary to play great golf (score wise) and they flat out don't care one iota. They keep bloviating and posturing and demanding that we golfers respect and praise them, all the while their actions tell us that it's only the club manufacturers they care about.

How can they not see that making Open courses ever longer and longer is not good for the game? Can they not feel the great champions of the past rolling over in their graves? Will Johnny Miller speak out, or even write to them protesting his record being usurped by a kid playing a game improvement ball with trampoline clubs on a course with 60 yard wide fairways? Would they care or even listen?

Sadly, I find myself rooting against the players, wanting them to faulter and start missing fairways and greens because I know they're all "stall and slap" and timing based. But it's not their fault. As ABS proves, the gear (in large part) dictates the swing. As I said, I have no doubt Justin Thomas would be a grea player if the USGA had restricted the ball and clubs before he was born. He'd have been handed proper clubs by his dad and his swing would look very different because to hit a proper ball well requires a different set of dynamics. We all know this. It's just very sad to see something that I love, that we all love, be spoiled for no other reason than greed and marketing.
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Re: Current PGA tour

Postby lagpressure » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:06 pm

Stu Carlburger wrote:Not to be contrarian, because I agree with you, but the scoring doesn't necessarily bother me too much -- although, it would be nice to once again see par be a benchmark at the US Open.

What bothers me is that how long this guy is or that guy is is ALL anyone ever talks about. It's like we're watching a long drive championship, not a US Open Championship. It's clear to me that the USGA is selecting for one skill and one skill only -- distance -- and talk of 8000 yard courses only confirms that fact. They know for a fact that the ball today has reduced the skill necessary to play great golf (score wise) and they flat out don't care one iota. They keep bloviating and posturing and demanding that we golfers respect and praise them, all the while their actions tell us that it's only the club manufacturers they care about.

How can they not see that making Open courses ever longer and longer is not good for the game? Can they not feel the great champions of the past rolling over in their graves? Will Johnny Miller speak out, or even write to them protesting his record being usurped by a kid playing a game improvement ball with trampoline clubs on a course with 60 yard wide fairways? Would they care or even listen?

Sadly, I find myself rooting against the players, wanting them to faulter and start missing fairways and greens because I know they're all "stall and slap" and timing based. But it's not their fault. As ABS proves, the gear (in large part) dictates the swing. As I said, I have no doubt Justin Thomas would be a grea player if the USGA had restricted the ball and clubs before he was born. He'd have been handed proper clubs by his dad and his swing would look very different because to hit a proper ball well requires a different set of dynamics. We all know this. It's just very sad to see something that I love, that we all love, be spoiled for no other reason than greed and marketing.


Regardless of the course set up.... someone will play best, better than the others and win. You could make this argument for any game or competition, even tossing paper wads in a trash can across the room. Someone wins, someone is great at it, deserves to win etc.

I would just really like to see the old game come back to some degree of legitimacy. The ball has to be rolled back 15%. There has to be a limit on driver clubface surface so that a need for precision in contact becomes important again. It's absolutely absurd for players to be able to swing so hard and out of control with a huge Flintstones clubhead. 3" by 2". Simple. Really needs to go back to irons and woods. Irons made of iron, woods made of wood. Simple and grounded in the great tradition of the game.

Certainly no fault of the younger generation. They are just playing a game my generation handed to them. It's the lack of integrity and respect for the game of my generation.
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Re: Current PGA tour

Postby sbowers73 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:52 am

It was a sad site to see watching that Open... Like Lag said, sure there was a competition therefore people win and lose and a Champion is crowned. There were top players humbled and missed the cut. The leader board became packed at the top for a bit and there was excitement.
Where are the trees? Could you force someone to change their start line and have to hit a certain shot shape?

Im going to beat the drum we all like to beat.

I have a running theme and gripe about a trend I see in our great country. Capitalism has a downside. If it is not kept in check with traditions, principals, and values then money takes over and runs over everything in its sight. The players want money, the tour wants money, the sponsors want money, the host communities and charities want and need money.
They have to keep selling equipment year after year... its a business. A club that was good last year cant be good enough this year or they wont have the sales from $400/$500 drivers and woods.

Repeating what another said in the thread the USGA/PGA is riding the marketing and technology boom of distance (and accuracy*lower spin*). The tour is marketing how long and far this guy hits and and that guys hits it.
Its almost Freudian the way marketing is pushing the BIGGER, LONGER DRIVES!!! Longer irons! Longer, longer longer!!!!!!!!!!
Hey lets try an old trick we used on women for years! Lets take size 12 pants and dresses and number them size 10! Now they will feel great being a size 10! Lets take irons and bend it to an 8 and label it a 9! Wow I just got one club longer.

Im also waiting to see how bad the injury rates start getting for these guys...
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Re: Current PGA tour

Postby 84425 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:49 am

The silly thing with distance in professional golf is also that in 99% of the cases it is just a little number shown to the viewers at home on their tv. Based on just the tv footage without the added info of tracers, trackman and whatever I am unable to say how far each of those balls went they hit. All i see is someone pounding a driver, a shot of a ball in the air and another sot of a ball landing and either stopping or rolling on for dozens of yards. For all I know that "mighty" drive was 250y or 400y. 9 out of 10 times they don't even play the regular (back) tees at tournaments, so even if you are familiar with the course they are playing you won't be able to compare where their ball ends on the fairway with where your ball ends.

They could introduce a tournament ball that spins more and flies less far and have the commentators just add 50 yards to each shot so people at home think the 250 yard drives go 300 yards. The spectators in the course won't notice the difference either, they'll just see who's fitting it furthest in the group.
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Re: Current PGA tour

Postby lagpressure » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:34 am

I've been hearing "it's the weather" excuse for the low scores over the last few years.... as if it never rained in June back in the 50's through the 80's. Is anyone actually buying this crap?

This year it's the rain that softened the course for low scoring.
A few years back it was the lack of rain that kept the rough from properly growing. :roll:
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Re: Current PGA tour

Postby LesMurray » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:01 am

I watched the early rounds on the internet. To me, it never really felt like a US Open. The only difficult part of the course was the greens. Sure, you miss the fairway you were penalized about a shot - but how could you miss a 60 yard-wide fairway?

Also, I never really liked the layout of the course. Visually it looked spectacular, and yet my first impression was why is every hole a forced carry? Maybe this was part of the setup for the Open yet I was thinking this course is only set up for long driving.
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Re: Current PGA tour

Postby Stu Carlburger » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:56 am

You're right, it didn't feel like a US Open but just a regular tour event. The greens were too soft, and with the "stop like a sack-of-gain" golf ball the guys were peppering the flag. The saddest part of that to me was the fact that Ricky played a classy shot into that last par 3 -- a flighted mid iron that landed appropriately short -- and he got screwed when it not only didn't release but trickled back down the slope. I guess the USGA thinks a 198 yard 8iron that literally hits and stops to be something that is good for the game!
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Re: Current PGA tour

Postby lagpressure » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:38 pm

I guess Johnny Miller has been getting crucified in the press for speaking his mind about his record being equaled on this course. I can't blame him for speaking his position. It's not the same in any way and Miller's feat is far more impressive. I would like to see anyone go out and shoot 63 at a proper US Open playing persimmon, blades and a balata ball... then set up with tight fairways, deep rough, firm fast greens and on a Sunday to boot.

It's completely disrespectful of a great accomplishment. What needs to happen is for modern historians to figure where the line in the sand is best draw between the persimmon era and the modern era.

I would say it was the introduction of the Big Bertha Driver... I am sure others might suggest the introduction of the Pro V ball. I think Bradley mentioned about 1998.

My opinion is that there was a kind of strange transition period between 1993 and 1998 when the game radically changed into something unrecognizable from the past. In the early 1990's you still had a fair number of persimmon drivers out on tour, but they were dwindling fast. The earlier TaylorMade Burners where the same head size as the persimmon drivers of that time, but had a lower center of gravity so guys could play them easier off the fairway when needed. It was a choice with pros and cons and not a game changer.

When the first oversized drivers came on the market, I knew right then that something needed to be done about it. I had this conversation with Todd Hamilton in Indiana when we were paired together at Tour School. He was using it and admitted it was a huge advantage at the time over the field who had not yet taken them on generally speaking. This was 91 or 92 if I remember right.

I don't think there is a clear cut line of demarcation, but it's somewhere in there... mid 90's. Golf did certainly change with the arrival of Tiger, but I would defend Tiger in that he was completely playing the game at a different level compared to the competition early on. The continued technological advancements over the years started to homogenize the fields with further changes to the ball and drivers... the heads got bigger and bigger enabling lesser players to just swing much harder without consequence and brought a slew of long hitters up to Tiger's level of distance. Then it just became more and more of a putter's game. The greens got better and better tipping a further advantage to the great rollers of the rock. Then fairways got wider and wider, greens bigger and purer.... and has eventually led us into a bomb and short iron game with putting the main deciding factor of tour success.

Just how I see it.
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