The Moe thread

The Moe thread

Postby Steb » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:03 pm

It was suggested elsewhere a Moe thread was started, so let's go for it. Carrying over the pictures posted:

Moe.jpg
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Moe2.jpg
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Moe was autistic and we know this can lead to extraordinary abilities in very specific areas, often heightened senses of awareness. Plus he was known to hit over 2000 balls a day with calluses on his hand so rough he could draw blood if drawn across your face.

Has the mere mortal got a chance with this sort of swing?
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Re: The Moe thread

Postby pinzer » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:19 pm

It's not confirmed that Moe was autistic... according to KnowMoe.com, Graves Golf Academy, and other sites he was in an accident as a child that caused him to become introverted. He withdrew into hitting golf balls. Could he have been autistic, sure... but without a proper diagnosis I hate to "label" him. I've spoken with Todd Graves and he's not sure if he would label Moe as autistic either.

Here's a video that I have watched maybe 100 times. It's powerful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZbNdBg9p18
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Re: The Moe thread

Postby lagpressure » Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:35 pm

Moe could do those insane mathematical multiplications... I witnessed it. Not sure that is any kind of proof.. but I was there.

Moe did carry the Hogan flip book in the back of his car, and he showed it to me on more than one occasion. I was watching Moe bomb drivers on the range one year in Saskatoon, and he said, "67 drives in a row without the tee moving" (coming out of the ground)

Moe just picked everything very clean. Very shallow.

There were a couple of guys on the tour who were working on a swing similar to Moe's, but not always with the same success.
But as some of the teachers who are trying to teach "Moe" , I don't think they understand that Moe's swing worked because of what he did post impact, not before.
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Re: The Moe thread

Postby BomGolf222 » Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:32 pm

Nice one, Steb...
I don't know a ton about Moe's swing other than what I've been able to gather from looking at videos of him through the years, and listening to, or reading about his thoughts. His swing seemed to evolve as he got older and became more of the 'single plane' vision that is associated with him- though the whole single plane concept is erroneous to me. His swing from his younger years, even up through the 80's was pretty close to 'normal' looking. He had incredible footwork in my mind, and clearly had super strong legs, as well as hands and arms, it appears.
To me his mind was probably his greatest strength. The mental concept he had of his swing was so simple, and so clear to him, that I think it was the real drive behind his consistency. It seems to me like his understanding of his swing came from the bigger structure of it, as opposed to the minutia of hand action and release. Not every golf swing can be judged physically because on analysis some swings don't add up to what they produce.
Lag, do you know if Moe ever saw much, or studied film of himself? You were saying that the key to his swing was post impact, how does this play in to how he released the club? He had that swingers release with a relatively fast closing face. If the face has already succumbed to CF, how does what happens after that have such a big effect? You've also said a few times that he has a perfect 'swingers action', why is that?
It will be cool to get some Moe thoughts going on..
Cheers...
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Re: The Moe thread

Postby Steb » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:26 pm

BomGolf222 wrote:... though the whole single plane concept is erroneous to me.


Me too. It's often claimed that single plane is simpler, less moving parts, but I see it like straight-back/straight-through putting--a lot of manipulation going on to conform to this self-inflicted restriction. If single-plane just happened for someone, a vapor trail, then great, but forcing it can't be good. I always look at Furyk, he found his own personal channels to swing in and stuck to them and not many have been as consistently always up there over the last 15 years.
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Re: The Moe thread

Postby twomasters » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:45 pm

Let me point out a couple of things that I believe are slightly off with those photos ..IMO....(They were posted by someone besides Steb..he just installed them on this new thread)

1)The yellow line regarding plane in photo number 1 is off the mark....why?... because Moe's clubhead is a good 18 inches or more back behind the ball at address- so the line is a true reflection of where his club is to start the swing....but not where his club will be at impact because they are a good 2 feet apart in difference between the 2 photos.... I think that is logical enough to say they will be varied to a larger degree than what these 2 photos try to show

2) You can see his head/knees have dropped considerably at impact (when you compare the tree behind his head)....so going by that his angle at impact has changed also to some degree.

So yes...the shaft still runs up his arm, but the angles have changed because of variance in setup position of club position and by kneeflex/head drop into impact--- SO--- is it a true perfect one plane swing like we have been led to believe by the original poster? ... probably not- but still an excellent action as the results show

Just nit picking but if we are going to discuss Moe's swing we need to look at everything and discuss because some things that appear, aren't always what they are shown to be

In one of those Graves videos Moe says..."I hit it so straight...the face never rolls or crosses over"..... BUT....as we all know he DID roll the face...so what was he really feeling or doing?

I would listen to what Lag has to say about Moe's swing more than anyone else...not only did Lag spend a bunch of time with him practicing and picking his brain and talking .... he spent his time with him before The Natural Golf phase and when others tried to cash in on Moe...he saw the younger better version before age and health stalled him a little
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Re: The Moe thread

Postby BomGolf222 » Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:01 pm

I think you just said exactly what we're talking about Twomasters.... that line is pure bullshit....
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Re: The Moe thread

Postby BomGolf222 » Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:02 pm

Exactly, Steb. Unless the shaft comes straight out of your forearm as well as a million other things, then there's no real single plane. I get overwhelmed when I think of trying to discuss the issues I have with that idea.
I think Moe knew what he was doing because he had big grips and had the club in the meat of his hands- as close to straight out of his arms as you can get, and the fat grips make this tons easier. His swing was short because of this too since he had a mostly a backward and forward hinge of his wrists- this also explains how he released it imo.
The fatter the grip the more your left hand will appear and act 'weak' because there's less to wrap your hand over. Imagine how your left hand would look on the side of a ball and you can see that.. Maybe he was on to something with super big grips too.
Lag, did he have big grips when you were spending time with him? Maybe I should have a separate 'Moe Questions' thread!
Lots of potential for interesting discussion on this thread.....
Cheers...
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Re: The Moe thread

Postby Hogansquest » Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:36 am

Moe supposedly said to Jack Kuykendall when they met that 1966 was the best he swung the golf club EVER! And that swing could really help somebody.

The Hogan flip book Moe carried around was a thin book and it is shown in the Pipeline Moe video although its from a distance so you cant see any of the pictures, what’s interesting is you see that book in his back pocket on a lot of other footage like in the Journey Man video.

1966 Footage
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Re: The Moe thread

Postby Richie3Jack » Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:52 am

Moe is somebody I've studied a lot of because, IMO, he was the greatest ballstriker of all time. I wouldn't get in a debate with somebody who thought Hogan or even Snead were better because it's splitting hairs.

The first time I ever saw him hit balls was in 1996 on a video a college teammate of mine had of Moe doing a clinic in Florida...I'm guessing it was '93-95. The video would show some shots and their ball flight and would also pan out to the range to show where they landed. It was pretty incredible. I often wonder if he still has that tape and maybe he could put it into a DVD and eventually put it on YouTube. I had heard of Moe before them, from Golf Magazine and Golf Digest, but at the time I just couldn't figure out what all the rave about him was until I saw that video.

When I got back into the game last year, one of the things I wanted to know was how Moe did it. I eventually started up my blog and started talking to numerous readers who had played with Moe. Some as early as 1978. The stories were about the same to the effect of Moe hiting almost every green and every fairway, shooting something like 64-68 and could've shot in the 50's if he could've putted a lick. Also, these stories also stated that Moe was actually pretty long back then compared to the consensus he was short in distance. I think people who think he was short probably didn't see him until the mid to late 90's when he was in his 60's and heading into his 70's.

There is also the consensus that all he could do was hit it dead straight (like that's a bad thing). I can tell you from watching that tape my old teammate had that Moe could work the ball on command with ease. He call a draw, and hit a draw. He'd call a slice, hit a big slice at the target. Call a hook, hit a hook at the target. Then call for a straight ball and bust one dead straight at the target.

I started to draw the conclusion that Moe was the greatest ballstriker when Hogan said that if he ever hit the green in regulation at #11 at Augusta, you knew he pulled his approach shot. Obviously, Hogan *could* hit that shot often, but Moe had no doubt in his mind that he could and could do it. I also started to contemplate whether or not a golfer should be able to work the ball or if they can be better off hitting it dead straight. My conclusion is that the reason why so many good/great golfers work the ball is that they cannot trust themselves to hit it dead straight on command. However, Moe was the one guy who could and that is what seperates him from the rest IMO.

I don't think Moe was autistic because he was able to communicate too well for an autistic person. I probably tend to side with him possibly having asperger's syndrome, although it seemed that later in life he could put on those clinics with ease which doesn't sound like somebody with aspergers syndrome could do. I do agree that his mind was his greatest asset. I honestly believe that if I could strike it like Moe, I would still have the inability to just 'let it go' on every shot like Moe did.







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