The Nautilus, the Golf Swing, Golden Ratio, Fibonacci seque

Re: The Nautilus, the Golf Swing, Golden Ratio, Fibonacci seque

Postby 1teebox » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:27 pm

BomGolf222 wrote:RR,
That photo is a bit of a mind blower for sure. As far as I know, and IOZ would be better equipped to answer, it's a standard enough shot where the ball leaves the ground- how high, I'm not sure. In the small world thread there are full sequences from that shot as well as more of a drag type shot where I'm pretty sure the ball stays close to the ground. The stick itself has no loft, and that's a give away in itself.
I'm sure that the length of arm swing going back, or lack thereof, is what forces that 'position' coming down as the body creates force in a short enough period of time. Both Hogan and that hockey player have fairly limited arms swing going back. As an aside, I also think the forward/downward action is actually what elongates, or completes the shoulder turn, but again, it's in the name of creating power that it happens. I'm not aware of any other sport that recommends an active shoulder turn other than golf- If any body knows one let me know. As a general rule, the appearance of delay in the parts of the body out to the thing that's being thrown/used etc., happens in the forward/downward action- a baseball pitcher, for example. Nelson had a pretty limited backswing shoulder turn, instead going back together- Trevino too imo. Obviously, the shoulders turn, and the bits above always turn more than the bits below, but I do think that the separation is as a result of acceleration in the direction you're looking to go. This is probably for a different thread- sorry for the hijack, 1T...
Lag,
Thanks for posting those diagrams... very interesting stuff.


BOM,

Actually, it's NOT a highjack at all, imho. The "Nautilus..." topic is meant to inquire about natural elements involved with humans swinging something realatively stiff and crooked to successfully propel something round. When I look at the hockey player, I wonder what role Phi or the Fibonacci sequence and spiral plays in the swing, if any. If Phi does play a role, everything else the player does to execute the swing is somehow integrated with that I suppose, and discussion of those other things connects with it too. Just an untrained opinion on my part; I want to look at everything for a sense of things. After all, it is a Small World and those fantastic pix expand the sense of it, at least to me. For what it is worth, to get a dose of inspiration every time I use my computer, I use that image for my desktop background. Also, having that image in the back of my mind somehow helps me swing more athletically, more instinctively. So, thank you for your post.
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Re: The Nautilus, the Golf Swing, Golden Ratio, Fibonacci seque

Postby hawg1 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:47 pm

I'm not aware of any other sport that recommends an active shoulder turn other than golf- If any body knows one let me know.


Bom,
An active shoulder turn is what defines a Ice Hockey slap shot. The main difference between the two is that an epic fail in golf (IE a beaver pelt divot) is close to perfection in ice hockey. The goal of a slap shot is to load the shaft as well, but we can use the ice as leverage, and put all our weight, strength and momentum into bending it.

It's not a fluke that Jamie Sadlowski can bomb a golf ball, and can fire a slapshot well over 100 mph. And I bet when he hits on fat, he leaves a trench deep enough to catch a cart tire.

cheers,
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Re: The Nautilus, the Golf Swing, Golden Ratio, Fibonacci seque

Postby 1teebox » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:36 pm

Mr. Saul Bernstein befriended us by contributing information to this topic through lag.

As a small token of appreciation, I would like to provide a link to some of Mr. Bernstein's art.

http://www.saul-bernstein.us/Re-Draw/Re-Draw/12229222_UXywa#867591783_kPJKU

Additionally, here is an interview with Mr. Bernstein, an Emmy winning computer art pioneer:
"Saul Bernstein, Pixel Picasso" : http://www.atarimagazines.com/creative/v9n7/96_Saul_Bernstein_Pixel_Pic.php
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Re: The Nautilus, the Golf Swing, Golden Ratio, Fibonacci seque

Postby BomGolf222 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:17 pm

Cheers, 1T... I'm similar in that way with topics, it's fun to let them evolve as they may. I also have my picture/thought of the moment as my screen background- I love letting those images seep into the mind...

Hawg1,
I think the thing about ice hockey is though, they don't really use that big a shoulder turn even though the term is used, unlike golf where the backswing shoulder turn is to 90 degrees or beyind in standard teaching- the point being that I don't think this is necessarily great advice. I lik the point they reach in ice hockey and then the downward/forward action tightening the screws so to speak and finishing off the 'turn'. There are obviously a lot of differences in the slap shot and the golf swing, but at the same time, a lot to learn from it.
Cheers...
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Re: The Nautilus, the Golf Swing, Golden Ratio, Fibonacci seque

Postby hawg1 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:02 pm

Bom,
I can remember more than one coach tellin' us to get our backs to the goalie when we wound up for a slap shot. Watch someone who can really bring it, and notice how far behind them the stick goes. I just grabbed hockey stick, loaded up for a point shot and looked in the mirror; my back is most def pointed at the target. Granted, you don't often get this far around, especially if a defender is close, but in terms of full shoulder turn, oh yea, baby, that's as far back as I go on a golf backswing.

And also granted, one doesn't have to get this far, quite often the swing arc of say, up to p3 and through to p4 will suffice. Remember, it's always a gamble in hockey, take a big windup and risk getting creamed / giving the goalie enough time to set up, vs. taking the full swing and gettin' enough mustard on the shot to beat the goalie's reaction time.

The other difference 'tween these two swings is the role of the blade. In golf, it's static(well, I bet mandarin could give the formula to resolve the moments on the blade, but I'm guessin they are pretty low, especially if ya hit it on the screws). In hockey, the is very active indeed. The vast majority of shots are almost all just torquing and releasing the blade, and in that sense, the two swings are as different between chalk and cheese.

But when a NHL defenceman tees one up and blasts a 110 mph shot from the point, his shoulder turn would be within fractions of a degree as if he were teeing up a driver on the first tee and trying to hit the ball 400 yards. And some of them can.

cheers
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Re: The Nautilus, the Golf Swing, Golden Ratio, Fibonacci seque

Postby 1teebox » Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:05 am

hawg1 wrote:Bom,
The other difference 'tween these two swings is the role of the blade. In golf, it's static(well, I bet mandarin could give the formula to resolve the moments on the blade, but I'm guessin they are pretty low, especially if ya hit it on the screws). In hockey, the is very active indeed. The vast majority of shots are almost all just torquing and releasing the blade, and in that sense, the two swings are as different between chalk and cheese.
hawg1


hawg1,

Are you describing a moment of inertia distinction between the roles of the blade in an ice hockey swing and any golf swing, both hitting and swinging golf protocols, or only the golf hitting golf protocol of ABS? Is the moment in the golf club blade swung with a swinging protocol more active like a very active moment in the ice hockey blade?

I know zero about ice hockey and slightly more, so far, about the objective and subjective differences between the golf swinging and hitting protocols; just looking for another handhold out of switting purgatory bound by slippery slopes.
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Re: The Nautilus, the Golf Swing, Golden Ratio, Fibonacci seque

Postby BomGolf222 » Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:32 am

Hawg1,
I do understand that stuff, but I think we're probably talking about something slightly different. Mentioning it as I did as an aside, probably wasn't a good idea.
There's a tendency in golf to over use the shoulders/upper half early in the downswing and imo it comes from an unnatural and out of sync elongation of the backswing shoulder turn. There should be a blending that comes out of a more unified full body action that hockey players do quite well actually. Though in hockey the whole action is more shoulder driven since the feet have to be a lot more stable than they are in golf- It would be difficult to have a pivot driven slap shot unless you like lying on the ice. The shoulders release through the shot with the upper half going down and forward, something we obviously don't do in golf. It's also a much more up and down, bent over action. Like you say, there are many differences between the slap shot and the golf swing....
With an over active shoulder turn the tendency is then to try to get them back in sync and they become active at the start down. This is both from a need to realign in a coordination way, but also, due the conscious act of 'turning the shoulders' on the backswing, they become a focus of attention and remain something to be used and more often than not, they're used too early. Again, something that would be good in a slap shot but not a golf swing.
I admit, it's a bit of a subtle argument/distinction, but relevant nonetheless I think.
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Re: The Nautilus, the Golf Swing, Golden Ratio, Fibonacci seque

Postby Range Rat » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:46 am

BomGolf222 wrote:As an aside, I also think the forward/downward action is actually what elongates, or completes the shoulder turn, but again, it's in the name of creating power that it happens.


You have now been appointed executive vice-president in charge of motion dynamics decription. The shorter arm travel wraps around this concept like bark on a tree. Lag refers to this as having the body play catch-up to the hands and arms. I like your description of elongation, which is the default to the shorter hand/arm travel. Bang on!

Let's see, we now have "access", "in front of", "inatimate object" and "elongation". Pretty impressive stuff if you ask me.

Compression anyone! :) RR
You're ahead of where you were, and behind where you're going.
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Re: The Nautilus, the Golf Swing, Golden Ratio, Fibonacci seque

Postby hawg1 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:25 am

Heads up, folks, here comes the ghost of Happy Gilmore... .

To crib from Einstein, let's try a thought experiment. Start with your mod1 impact drill. Now, elongate the shaft of your club maybe 35-40 percent, but do not change any of the other dynamics. Take a few swings (please, lawyer alert, do this only as a thought experiment) and notice how the impact point of the club moves backwards and into the ground.

Now, move your lower hand down the shaft, somewhere between the 2/3 and mid way point. Go to your end point of the mod1 drill. You'll have to bend at the waist a bit to fit it in (axis tilt is most def not a prob for hockey players to achieve, something about that big ol hunk o' lumber whackin' ya in the ribs that provides motivation to get into the right position.)

Now turn your shoulders, so that the number on your back (oops, forgot to mention this thought experiment is done while wearing a jersey from your favorite sports team) is pointing at your target.

Congratulations, you have now achieved position A in an ice hockey slap shot. And thus ends our thought experiment

Now to be clear, a slap shot like this is a relatively rare position, one seldom has time to get to it. It's usually only seen in practice, or when the rest or your team has successfully set you up to take a shot like this.

The other 95 per cent of the time, hockey players use mostly some version of a snap shot, which involves torquing the blade by levering it into the ice. Those shots have zippo, nadda, rien, to do with a golf swing.

But a full on slap shot? That's lag's mod 1 drill done with a stick that's long enough to fit under your chin, a marginally stiffer shaft than a golf club, and the hands split apart.

But is it a pivot driven swing? Holly Hannah, yes. That's why ABS fits so perfectly, I can Grok what lag is getting at. The muscle memory is finally a help, not a hindrance.

As for fallin' on your keester if ya try a pivot driven swing on ice? The trick to skating is learn to control one's edges. Once controlled, you can create a platform which will resist rotary motion to the point where your knee ligaments will fail before it slips; a properly set inside edge has zero percent lateral movement. I know we all miss steel golf spikes, but lemme tell ya, they were like banana peel specials compared to a skate blade.

Granted, there are some elements of the hockey / golf comparison that don't transfer over. I've sliced WAY to many balls into the next time zone to doubt that. And yes, a hockey player will almost without fail adopt an over the top move in golf.

But take a player who knows how to shoot a decent slapshot, but plays typical hockey player golf, show him / her lag's mod 1 video, and I'll give you better than Vegas odds that you will soon be watching a St. Paul-level epiphany.

And one last thought, this is all for what we've come to know as hitting protocol. There is no parallel for a swinging protocol in hockey, 'cept maybe when ya throw your gloves off... .

In one of the other threads, lag described the difference between hitting and swinging by the position of the club, if it were let go at impact. The swingers would be down in the hole to the right, the hitters would be up in the tree to the left. Well, that club would be right beside a hockey player's stick, were he executing a slapshot, and let go at the appropriate time.

Anyway, I'll turn off the Happy Gilmore mode now. Thanks for readin' eh.

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Re: The Nautilus, the Golf Swing, Golden Ratio, Fibonacci seque

Postby BomGolf222 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:13 am

You're speaking my language now with that hand down the shaft drill- that's one of my favourites, and moving it through the impact area with that in place shows exactly what everything should do. Because you can't rely on a swinging clubhead for speed, you're forced to go inside to find it- it's a great self teaching drill!
But you're taking the conversation on to something different from what I was talking about. The engagement of the legs and core muscles in the slap shot is the essence of my point- it's a whole body motion like the golfswing should be. Calling it a shoulder turn, or misunderstanding it to be just because that's what it looks like, is what gets people in trouble in golf.
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