The Nautilus, the Golf Swing, Golden Ratio, Fibonacci seque

Re: The Nautilus, the Golf Swing, Golden Ratio, Fibonacci seque

Postby 1teebox » Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:35 pm

lagpressure wrote:I'll ask John Allen about it. He mentioned being involved in the "Extraordinary Golf" series also. I saw his name credited in one of the books last night.


Very good news. I for one am looking forward to reading his views.
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Re: The Nautilus, the Golf Swing, Golden Ratio, Fibonacci seque

Postby 1teebox » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:10 pm

1teebox wrote:
lagpressure wrote:Were there any discussions about such concepts in "Golf in the Kingdom"?
It's been 20 years since I read the book, but I would imagine some references might be in there.


There were two books by Michael Murphy I read over a decade ago. The other one is "The Kingdom of Shivas Irons". I'll re-read them from the perspective of the first Nautilus post and ABS.

My hunch is you are onto something, but my memory is precariously thin now about these two books except that they were mind stretching, provocative fun. It will be good reading them again.


Lag,

I have finished my re-read of Michael Murphy's "Golf in the Kingdom".
I did not find mention of the Golden Rectangle, Nautilus, Phi, Fibonacci Sequence, and so forth.
Perhaps they are there, at least mystically.

I will begin reading Michael Murphy's sequel, "The Kingdom of Shivas Irons", next.
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Re: The Nautilus, the Golf Swing, Golden Ratio, Fibonacci seque

Postby lagpressure » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:54 pm

Well, since Mr Allen and Mr Murphy are good friends... I'll see if I can find anything out about Shivas' take on it all.

Maybe they are saving that for the film version... that is coming out surely in the next 100 planet cycles around the sun. 8-)
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Re: The Nautilus, the Golf Swing, Golden Ratio, Fibonacci seque

Postby 1teebox » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:14 am

lagpressure wrote:Well, since Mr Allen and Mr Murphy are good friends... I'll see if I can find anything out about Shivas' take on it all.

Maybe they are saving that for the film version... that is coming out surely in the next 100 planet cycles around the sun. 8-)


The film could be terrific, but if Shivas trusts we can handle it rightly and wants to share a little more with us now, there will be more than enough left to create a huge film.
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Re: The Nautilus, the Golf Swing, Golden Ratio, Fibonacci seque

Postby 1teebox » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:57 pm

1teebox wrote:
1teebox wrote:
lagpressure wrote:Were there any discussions about such concepts in "Golf in the Kingdom"?
It's been 20 years since I read the book, but I would imagine some references might be in there.


There were two books by Michael Murphy I read over a decade ago. The other one is "The Kingdom of Shivas Irons". I'll re-read them from the perspective of the first Nautilus post and ABS.

My hunch is you are onto something, but my memory is precariously thin now about these two books except that they were mind stretching, provocative fun. It will be good reading them again.


Lag,

I have finished my re-read of Michael Murphy's "Golf in the Kingdom".
I did not find mention of the Golden Rectangle, Nautilus, Phi, Fibonacci Sequence, and so forth.
Perhaps they are there, at least mystically.

I will begin reading Michael Murphy's sequel, "The Kingdom of Shivas Irons", next.
1teebox


I finished a re-read of "The Kingdom of Shivas Irons" by Michael Murphy. As promised, I was looking for references about the golden mean, the golden rectangle topic, the golden spiral and so forth. I did not find any, but I can't say that none were in the book; all too often I miss things that are plain as day to everyone else.

However, on page 109 of the paperback, there is a mirror image of a spiraling spherical mobius band echoing a DNA spiral and the strangeness of the tesseract. I am barely, if at all, equipped to suggest you may find this may symbolize golf and a psycho-physical mystery that may reveal itself within us if we are open to seeking it deeply and long enough.

--------
There may be a clue to the meaning of the spiral in Michael Murphy's dedication where he says the book was written: "For George Leonard, Comrade for the Ages".

Here is a selected interchange during an interview by J. Akiyama of George Leonard in Aiki Web:

Aiki Web: "What makes aikido so deep?"
George Leonard: "Well, it's deep because it's limitless. Things that have limits are never as deep. With aikido, you can figure out that the number of techniques, variations, kaeshiwaza, and such end up at an infinite number of possibilities.
And there's more to it than that. Aikido offers us an ideal that can never be completely brought into actuality, but it's such a wonderful ideal -- to create harmony out of conflict. What else can we ask for in aikido? That's it."
(The bold underlined emphasis above is mine, 1teebox.)
--------

How often is our personal challenge in any part of our golf quest "to create harmony out of conflict"?

I heartily recommend the full interview of George Leonard at: http://www.aikiweb.com/interviews/leonard0400.html

Lagpressure,

Thanks for reminding us about Michael Murphy. I not only got to re-read both "Golf in the Kindom" and "The Kingdom of Shivas Irons", it also led me to this interview of George Leonard. I now have a new goal of reading George Leonard's books as well as the other books that Michael Murphy has written. It's gonna be good!
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Re: The Nautilus, the Golf Swing, Golden Ratio, Fibonacci seque

Postby 1teebox » Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:54 pm

BomGolf222 wrote:This is a very interesting topic- nice work, 1teebox, I always enjoy when you get your ideas out here as they're always well thought out and thought provoking.
It hits home to me regarding an idea about how the game is perceived that has been forming in my mind for a good while, that being the difference between swinging a golf club and moving a golf ball. I think they're two different things, different art forms with different ends. It has repercussions in modern culture, I think, or modern culture has had repercussions on it, more specifically. It's about aesthetics, and form vs function. The bottom line, in my view, is that the pretty golf swings tend not to work very well. The 'ugly' ones, by and large, are the ones that seem to be better equipped to control the ball- Trevino, Nelson, Doyle, Chi Chi, etc. etc. all valued function over form. This may well be the swinging/hitting question.
In our modern consumer based culture, where advertising and physical 'beauty' rule the day, where video swing analysis is the answer to all problems in golf(and sells lessons!) What the swing looks like as opposed to what it actually does, seems to be what's valuable. If it looks a certain way, then it's supposed to work. I've talked a little about this before, but we seem to trust that how we do it, or how it looks, will create the results we want, as opposed to having the creation of a ball flight or how we strike it, form the shape of the action. As an aside, clearly Lag is tackling the form vs. function topic very well- when I say 'we' I mean modern golf.
I've heard more times than I care to remember, and I've regrettably said it myself, that Lee Trevino has an ugly golf swing. Yet he was arguably the best ball striker ever- how could that be? (A topic I've been thinking of posting is Hogan vs. Trevino- who struck it better?)
This is an idea that's been forming in my mind for a while, and I haven't yet gotten to the bottom of it, but this post seems to be connected to it on some level. This stuff is obviously a pretty large generalization, but I think specific things show up slowly but in dramatic ways. Cultural shifts happen gradually, but when they do happen, they tend to impact most things. Looking around us today, it's clear that the heart and soul are being ripped out of the world and in their place there's an image of something that doesn't actually exist. So why wouldn't this be the case with the golf swing? Or the whole game? Or popular music? Or economies? etc. etc. etc.
I'm not saying that humans haven't always been interested in beauty, or that beauty itself isn't real or valuable, but we seem to be creating it unnaturally more and more often in modern times, or looking in the wrong places for it, or even just completely making it up based on creating a perception or an image.
A bit heavy for a sunday morning? I need more coffee. Or less. :)
Cheers,
BOM


BOM,

From what I see here, whatever amount of coffee you had appears to be exactly the right dose.

Best,
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Re: The Nautilus, the Golf Swing, Golden Ratio, Fibonacci seque

Postby welshdentist » Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:20 am

A dentist in America wrote a piece criticising the state of dentistry. The point he made were that not many strived for excellence, and that many were focused on doing what they could "get away" with. It is rife throughout the world. Films are remakes of old classics or sequels in the main, music is largely covers by "trendy" fresh faces.

Modern equipment help people to "get away" with a lot, so there is less need to actually do the right things to compress a golf ball.

Good "Quality" ball striking is just that, there is no aesthetics to the swing involved in what was presented to the golf ball at impact. The golf ball only cares about speed, path, angle of attack, face angle in determining where it goes.
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Re: The Nautilus, the Golf Swing, Golden Ratio, Fibonacci seque

Postby goldengolf » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:47 pm

I first noticed the chambered nautilus in the golf swing way back in the 1980's. A strobe photo appeared on a golf instruction book that I was perusing. I cannot recall the title of the book right now. If anyone out there remembers, that would be great. It wasn't until reading Robert Prechter's book, The Elliot Wave Theory that I came to piece together a golf theory based on this aesthetic constant.

I believe that when the mind is completely clear, absent of any thought (be it a thought in a larval state or a thought as a full blown conceptual butterfly) ... free of all this ... then and only then can trust persist throughout the movement ... then and only then can the ball be seen in a pristine primordial state ... then and only then will the nautilus appear in the swing. All physical manipulations are worthwhile only in the context of the trust in which the tinkering occurs. Pure shots can be had in the stack and tilt context. Pure shots can be had in the conventional swing context. Pure shots can be had in the Moe Norman context. Nearly any manner of configuration can be successful if there is absolute trust in the motion as it is expressed.

A while back I had an extraordinary experience playing a round (or should I say "playing around") with the stack and tilt method. BTW I have never read The Golfing Machine , but I believe that the idea of the Stack and Tilt is derived from this material. Subsequently, I deluded my sentient self into believing that there was something to it. But here's the thing. It was not that the method was preferable to any other. It was simply that (for some reason) I fell into a spell of trust which, in that instance, allowed a pure expression of the motion to be borne out. Application of the method itself is not the answer. Finding a sense of trust that is not dependent on method is the answer. This is a high order primary key. Method and it's distractions is like putting your thumb somewhere on the flat plane of a ringing cymbal. The cymbal continues to vibrate outside of the place where you touch it ... but everything goes dead inside of it. The tension of consciousness is just like the thumb ... deadening the possibility of the pure strike. The key is to ring the cymbal without touching it ... the question is how we become the ringing cymbal from the Centre to the periphery and from the periphery to the Centre ... thus, facilitating a reciprocation and harmonization of interacting waves ... like the seeds of a sunflower. So I believe that the golden spiral is more than just observable ... it is experiential. In other words, when you know inside that you have "pured" it and the ball is sailing straight to the pin, a strobe photo of that particular swing would reveal a nautilus property.

I shudder to see what a strobe photo would look like if it were taken during the commencement of a shank or a topped shot. If the strobe picture were taken of an inexperienced golfer, twisted into knots, attempting to strike the ball, I don't believe the nautilus strobe effect would manifest itself. I believe you would still see a spiral ... but it would be truncated or distended ...evidence of an impure expression.

The bottom line is that we as golfers cannot create the golden swing we can only surrender to it and trust that it will create itself ... if we just allow it to happen! Therein lies the paradox of the game.

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Re: The Nautilus, the Golf Swing, Golden Ratio, Fibonacci seque

Postby robbo » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:43 pm

Not sure I can explain why, but, like so many concepts illuminated here ........ Genius!

I remember investigating the goldengolf website a few years back at the same time I was well into my TGM journey. Something about it seemed to ring a bell but I didn't know why. This post resurrects that feeling.

Thanks for posting that Taylor!

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Re: The Nautilus, the Golf Swing, Golden Ratio, Fibonacci seque

Postby 1teebox » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:55 pm

hello Taylor,

Your observations at goldengolf.com about the golden ratio, fibonacci sequence, phi, and such with respect to golf and more ignited my untrained attention a long time ago, but I was not capable of knowing how to think about it and what to do with it, and as it happens with porous memories and short attention spans like mine, the subject fell away underneath other concerns for a long time. It remains unsettled in my mind. Striving for attainment seems to bring what may be essentials full circle sooner or later and recently the subject and some questions about it surfaced again as this topic where I hoped others experienced at thinking about such things might weigh in.

I am glad to see your post and look forward with great interest to other posts you might contribute.

Best to you.
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