Feelings

Re: Feelings

Postby BomGolf222 » Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:34 am

It's not necessarily cause by anything, it just is more closed when led by the front because you're leading the face. I didn't mean to confuse a good thought as it sounds like you're getting a lot from it.
Simply put- can you see that the face IS more open when you lead with the back of the hosel than when you lead with the front? If you're leading with the back of it, then halfway down and into p3, the face will be pointing skywards then to right field? Taking grip style discrepancies into account, essentially the back of the hosel would correspond with the back of the fleshy heel pads on your hands, so the palm of the right hand would be facing up and the back of the left hand would be facing up(for righties). This would be a more 'open' position than leading with the front of the hosel which would correspond with the palm of the right hand which would then be facing at the ball a lot earlier than in the other motion and be less potent. This is going into a lot of detail for a pretty small 'feel' thing, but it sounds like you're struggling to see it. From what I can tell, it fits very well with how Lag would be teaching so it sounds like it's a thought that works with what you'd be doing anyway. Sometimes simple thoughts can encapsulate and achieve a lot which is the point of a thread like this....
So it isn't that there's any cause other than which side of the hosel you lead with would equate to either of the two face position tendencies.
I'm not sure if Hogan mentions this in that book or not- I read it a few years ago and liked it a lot but can't remember if it's in there. He's talked about it in his inimitable Hogan style 'off the record' conversations, but I've verified it enough to feel comfortable attributing the thought to him.
BOM...
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Re: Feelings

Postby kafka01 » Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:54 pm

I didn't mean to confuse a good thought as it sounds like you're getting a lot from it.
Dont worry - i think its though to overrule or confuse a feeling, when it is proper, since the mind will tell you, what you do is right, and the result is right too. Especially in golf i think its dangerous to understand everything 100% - that might lead to information overload and will do more harm than good, but you really did a great job explaining it, so thanks a lot.

so the palm of the right hand would be facing up and the back of the left hand would be facing up(for righties)
Thats similar to the description of Hogan how he would have been able to carry a tray of waterglasses during this position

And this whole open face idea - ever since i discovered that an open face is not evil, i actually get back pain from reparing all these pitch marks on the greens :D . I think more people should play around with this idea and see what they can develop off it. I guess it takes a couple more components than an open face to hit a good shot, but without it you´ll never get there - and i get freaked out by a closed clubface by now.

Actually its really weird, the best feelings i get when i just chip&pitch around loosly in my garden (no need for full swing - just great impact with a bit more control than in a full swing) - no pins - no pressure, just experimenting around. When practicing or playing you always seem to want to "get in the hole" and all of a sudden your motion isnt as free anymore as it is without all those "demands and pressures".
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Re: Feelings

Postby BomGolf222 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:56 am

I'm glad we got to the bottom of that... sounds like you're right on track...
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Re: Feelings

Postby BomGolf222 » Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:17 am

I find a gradual softening of my left leg in the backswing, is an indirect yet very natural way to load and to stay strong into my right leg, and to not rush my lower body in transition. I learned this from studying the different tensions in my legs as I walk- the leg going forward always swings softly to catch, and is never accelerated forward with force or muscular tension- try actively swinging your leg forward as you walk and see how it feels, not very good, but kind of funny at the same time(any Fawlty Towers/Monty Python fans out there?) It arrives instinctively to catch you and then gets to work and transitions to become the rear force leg. It's a bit of a different perspective to see the left leg catching you as opposed to being more actively involved, but I've found it to be quite useful and instinctive. I strike it best when I give myself the time to feel a sort of fall in transition, and softening my left leg creates what I like to call a loaded imbalance, where the rear leg takes the load before it makes it's way through the shot.
The imbalance is very alive- it's cool to experiment around with how long you can leave the lead leg soft for during the downswing. You can really get a nice load into the rear leg and it makes you go down really low in an instinctive reaction to trying to get below the falling weight, and stay 'ahead of it' as such, and catch it. It's very interesting to play around with. It can be quite strenuous so if you're giving it a go, take it easy. It's amazing what your body wont actually let you do, and as a result, the pressure you can create. Necessity is a more powerful tool than simple desire, so I like finding ways to make the body do what I want it to do as a sort of survival reaction, than have it just be my own 'frivolous' desire to hit my golf ball.
I do a drill where I try to pick up my left leg and try to fall left at the same time, right from takeaway. It's hilarious how heavily you actually get into the right leg doing that, by trying to do the complete opposite, and it's freaky powerful too, full of forward intent. It gives you a real sense of how much energy there is in your falling body. If you can time it when hitting a few balls, it's pretty cool, not to mention, powerful.
It's also a nice feeling to then gradually soften the rear leg after it's used, as the lead leg catches and braces, and we actively unwind. It's a good way to unload properly and to transfer the action up to torso rotation, and not get freaky with the leg drive. It's an instinctive way to force strength and good tension into the lead leg, and it also has a way of forcing you to go upstairs for speed. The rear leg can then act as a sort of dragging/swinging ballast as seen in the great torso rotation golf swings where the back leg drags along and slightly behind. If you imagine the force of rotation around the spine and left leg line, all going around to the left, there will need to be something staying behind and going the other way- if everything goes around then nothing will want to, at least not very fast. It wont get fully relaxed, and will eventually recapture the appropriate tension as it takes some of the load during the follow through, but that little time of softness I find to be very helpful.
Overall, it's a very nice 'feeling' for 'transferring' weight in the swing without getting too wrapped up in moving it around.
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Re: Feelings

Postby Range Rat » Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:51 am

Bom:

Never really thought about leg functions in that manner before. Very interesting, but true, how the forward leg "catches" the weight. Will certainly have some fun with that and I know just the spot......a large patch of overgrown ryegrass should help with feeling how the forward leg is indeed the Catcher in the Rye. :lol:

Seriously though....good stuff. :) RR
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Re: Feelings

Postby Range Rat » Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:29 am

Played around with it today....loads of fun but very enlightening as well. I was most certainly feeling the "dragging/ballast" of the rear leg. To me it felt like the rear leg was like a rudder on a boat....dragging on the inside of the shoe until a point when the foot starts to "want to" get up onto the toe.

Imagine that....the trail leg and foot can actually be rudder-like when we think about it closely. Thanks for your post...very cool. :D RR
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Re: Feelings

Postby hawg1 » Sat Sep 25, 2010 4:28 pm

it's cool to experiment around with how long you can leave the lead leg soft for during the downswing.


Extra karma points for Bom today His post triggered a lightbulb.

Doin the Mod 1 work has been a pain for me, in that it's difficult to keep my right foot on the ground at impact. But 10 swings with Bom's thought in my head changed that. I actually felt a different timing going into the ball.

That feeling of catchin' did the trick. Funny how the same idea, expressed just a bit differently... .

And here's a bit' o insight for you teachers out there: If your student can throw a ball even sorta well, you're gonna have an uphill battle to teach the golf timing.

Here's why: When we throw, we throw off our lead leg. As I'm slowly starting to grok, we golf off our trailing leg.

It's a subtle difference. Oh, boy is it subtle. ( I just ran out to the back yard and swung, just to make sure I have the feeling right. I do)

When we throw, the release point is well after we transfer our weight. I've spent lotsa hours in the past few months, feeling for this. When the ball comes outa your hand, you have all your weight on the your lead foot.

In golf, the analogy to the release point is the club / ball contact point. Right now, I can do a happy gilmore move in my living room, and feel exactly the same as what I used to (pre ABS) feel in a golf swing: Lift left leg, move left leg toward target, swing, plant left foot, feel the focus of the foot plant and the club hittin' the carpet at the same time.

Contrast that with Lag's feedback on my Mod 1 drills, and Bom's comments on the soft left leg "catching" the swing, and the weight "hanging on" the right side.

The timing is different. I think this is what they mean by "delaying the hit", cause the sequence seems out of order.

As the neighbor's cat looked on with disdain, it dawned on me: Pre ABS, I would strive to hit the ball with my right foot off the ground (exaggerated, but only slightly) Ante ABS, the feeling is to hit the ball with right foot ON the ground, then transfer onto left (note, this is not a reverse pivot, the weight is going toward the target, it's just the timing of transfer that changes).

So, thanks for the post, Bom. It helped.

Cheers,
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Re: Feelings

Postby BomGolf222 » Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:23 pm

Cool thoughts, guys. Very good observation on the different release points, Hawg1, that really is a key issue. We're delivering a load into the ball, which then moves, if we were throwing the club it would obviously be closer to the lead leg model you described. I do think there are key elements from pitching to be taken, like the closed off fall leading down prior to active rotation, and the lower body stabilization, but we can't wait until our centre passes the ball before delivering the blow because our mass is so important to proper propulsion. You make a good point about RP, because the mass certainly does move through, and people are often confused by the term staying behind the shot- you don't 'stay' behind, you stay behind it long enough to deliver through. This is one of the reasons I really don't like names or terms for things, it's extremely difficult to get names right, and because they do conjure such strong images that then create action, I think it's very important for them to be correct. I'm glad some of those thoughts helped out.
RR, I like the term rudder, very good. It does often feel that way, and there really is a strong case to be made for the relationship between the right leg and foot, and the right arm and hand. Some or most of the best strikers come in off the whole of their right foot and keep the inside of their right leg exposed to the target for a long time. If you think about this having some representation to the right arm and hand, then it's easy to see how this could effect the journey of the clubface through impact- both in terms of direction and force. It links to the previous conversation about delivering the blow at the correct time. Holding into the right side a bit longer on the way down can then be seen as clearly connected to the overall use of the right side, and in turn, the right hand. They're not identical journeys but they are clearly linked, as is everything.
I have 2 good photos of Peter Senior that capture their relationship pretty well in his swing, and I think Hogan would be the most clear example of coming in off the whole of the right foot. It's most noticeable with the irons since the driver is less linear since it's further away, but also because it's an overall more explosive action, and the front of our foot is where the real force is. This is a very interesting area, I reckon, and worth a close or closer look.
In regards to the overall use of the rear leg for ballast, I think this is huge. If you just look at the golf swing as an overall system of rotational propulsion, there has to be balance. The golf swing isn't symmetrical in structure, so it has to be in terms of mass when it's in motion. It could be seen in similar way to a crane, where the long arm is countered by mass on the opposite side. It's clearly not a symmetrical in structure, but it does have symmetry. In the golf swing, if we're looking to actively rotate with force around an axis, the base instinct of our internal monitoring system is simple- don't fall over. If you provide it with that comfort, you'll be free to move as you please. The dragging rear leg plays that roll, as the rear leg kick does in an ice hockey slap shot. The arms and club get quite heavy when they're going fast, and If you send everything around, like I said in the previous post, nothing will want to because you'll fall over. You don't want to fall over- that pretty much sums up our instinctive desires. Even if you're hitting your second shot to the last hole in the Masters, the only interest 'you' have, is not falling over. 'You' may think differently, but 'you' don't :) So provide conditions that will prevent that and it's more fun.
There's an interesting pattern to the angle the lower part of your rear leg comes out of the upper part, and the angle the club comes out of the spine post impact. They're not identical, but if you look at some of the lines in good golfers, and see them as simple systems and not necessarily 'golfers', there are links to be drawn.
I'll add some photos. They've probably been seen before, but if you look at the Hogan one and just get the sense of how he comes off the whole of his foot, and how long he keeps the inside of his rear leg exposed to the target. I love the Charlie Sifford sequence, and to me, I can really sense the reaction nature of his lower rear leg, how it's acting as a couterbalance to some of the best upstairs rotation I've ever seen. It's almost as if he's peaking out from under and around a corner as he goes through. Looking at the second to last photo in his sequence with the idea of the lower rear leg being a counter weight to the club, what I'm talking about becomes clear. And the Peter Senior ones speak for themselves, I think. He's a very late and active face rotator, and Lag would know his swing the best, but it seems to me that he has some of the latest and most active face rotation I've ever seen, and it's interesting to see it happening at the same time in his right foot, followed by the drag. The Senior ones won't upload for some reason, damn it. I'll see what I can do, but I think I remember trying to post those ones before and I couldn't. Lag might have them in a different form because I got them from ISG a long time ago where someone posted them- they're the ones where he's wearing shorts and there's a golf cart and some net behind him. It's a pity, because they're good ones....
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Re: Feelings

Postby Range Rat » Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:06 pm

An intriguing analysis Bom. I like it a lot.

Got to thinking about propulsion as you have not only mentioned above but in other posts too.

I think in propulsion models, if something is to accelerate the amount of thrust has to be greater than the "drag" of the system. I really liked your observation about the inside of the trail leg remaining target oriented for quite a long time. I never really noticed that relationship before your post. Perhaps, keeping the trail leg from turning too early is a way to reduce "drag" on the propulsion system....because as I think about it, if the inside of the trail leg starts turning to the left too early....in other words, going left with everything else....than that would be an increase in incremental "drag" within the closed system.

Perhaps reducing drag within the propulsion system also speaks in some ways to having the clubface open on the way down.......as it would seem that leading with the clubface squaring too early would expose a larger surface area to resistance...and as a result more "drag".

Please stop coming up with good stuff....no wait!.....please stop it some more :lol: RR
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Re: Feelings

Postby lagpressure » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:10 pm

One key similarity is how most great strikers work the club basically at right angles to the spine through most of the downswing and well post impact. Certainly these Hogan and Sifford sequences show that.

It sounds simple in conceptual form, but to do this is not likely going to "feel" simple.

In many of the modern swings, I see players either... not attempting to do this, or they are desperately struggling to do so. I think comments like "getting stuck" and so on... show players losing both understanding and focus in this area. Upright gear requires more 'bent over" from the waist which inhibits flat rotation of the torso, and this then promotes more of an arm swing, than a pivot or rotational based golf swing.

Setting up your gear flatter does wonders to make this a much more natural feeling and reality.
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