Holding Shaft Flex... The Holy Grail of Golf

Re: Holding Shaft Flex... The Holy Grail of Golf

Postby HB51 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:11 pm

Frozen, thanks for your response. so when you talk about keeping the tailbone on the centerline, you are talking about looking at it from a down the line of view, and the tailbone not moving closer to or father away from the ball throughout the swing? Is that how to interpret it?
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Re: Holding Shaft Flex... The Holy Grail of Golf

Postby Frozen Divots » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:55 pm

The centerline is face on. Trail side hip sets back, front side tries to stay put. Leaving upper body centered. You want rotation with level shoulders, ideally. From here you could put a heavy weighted barbell on your back and you are ok. Crane pivot with a barbell and your golf season is over.

Now you are set up for a squeeze that imparts level rotation and upper body sits on top of that and goes with. Arms now amplify rotation. Like spinning a basketball on finger and slapping on tangent line to speed up and keep rotation. Arms are the slap in that analogy.

The ground pressures drive lower legs down at an angle, like tent stakes. This is a very powerful force. You are rock solid and in rotation. Rotation in MOST cases causes balance issues. With this, balance is the last thing too worry about. The GRF generates more speed and power than an upward thrust. Because this is constant.

I’ll do a video again. If I’m alone at gym I’ll do with barbell that shows how solid, strong and balanced this is. I say alone at gym because I’ll look like a whacko if I make a video with loaded barbell on my back making a golf pivot in the middle of a gym.
I can also show other things at the gym with crossover machine. This will show more than words, etc can do.
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Re: Holding Shaft Flex... The Holy Grail of Golf

Postby lagpressure » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:01 pm

Frozen Divots wrote:I am very familiar with MORAD. I would say what I am talking about would have added to and changed it, if I were able to get my point understood. I would love to spend time with Mac O’Grady, especially back in the day, to show him this. This would have helped him. I know what he was trying to do.


One thing that irks me is the Seve/ MAC deal. Mac takes heat for that but Seve wasn’t truly pulling it off. Anyhow...it’s not easy to teach this. And I’m not a golf teacher, really. Not competing with you or anyone. In person I can explain it...online? Not sure about that. That’s your skill.


I have a tremendous amount of respect for Mac. He could strike the ball like few could if any.. when he was on. Very impressive.
He was a horrific putter, I mean really bad. Much worse than I was. The fact he was able to win on the PGA Tour twice based almost exclusively on ball striking is only to his credit. We never see that anymore, and I miss that in golf.

Like most, I think Mac makes the swing way too complicated. I make it complicated for sure.. because it is, but I just felt looking at his stuff that it was way to position oriented without really teaching HOW those positions should be created through movement, opposing forces, pressures, or even hidden pressures within the body.

Mac for instance had the best post impact pivot acceleration of anyone I ever saw play in person.... yet I never heard him mention it or offer exercises to do etc to achieve or even improve that area of great concern in the golf swing. So many of his students would hit all those positions on the backswing, at the top, on the way down, then their shafts would fold like beach chairs post impact, while Mac would continue to amaze everyone with his SECRET! 8-)

Did you go to any of Mac's seminars? or work with him in person?
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Re: Holding Shaft Flex... The Holy Grail of Golf

Postby Frozen Divots » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:48 pm

Lag,

Do you mean Mac's secret of creating so much angular velocity, primarily via certain retention, that created a rotational force so great it overwhelmed him, giving him that great post impact acceleration? :)
His force was so strong inward he couldn't contain it late in the swing.

I never took a MORAD lesson but have read notes of someone who has and have also watched and read everything I could. Love the swing, attitude, all of it.

I would have love to talk pivot with him and show him something about the club itself that creates more torque without some of that retention (one being in the right hand from the top). You can have opposing tensions, that's great, but you can also trade and transfer torque other ways, some much easier.

Hogan did it. But he was a tad weaker post impact because he had to move laterally to allow for his secret move. Yeah I said that, along with every other yahoo...his secret move...:)

But I love MORAD and understand why he pushed positions...because they are easier to see, pressures aren't and they are difficult to explain and teach well.

One more thing, how can any good ball striker be bad at putting, especially one who understand the depths of the golf swing?. Was it nerves? I can't imagine it being technique or anything that you guys can't figure out. Maybe it was overthinking on the greens?
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Re: Holding Shaft Flex... The Holy Grail of Golf

Postby lagpressure » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:59 pm

Frozen Divots wrote:Lag,

Do you mean Mac's secret of creating so much angular velocity, primarily via certain retention, that created a rotational force so great it overwhelmed him, giving him that great post impact acceleration? :)
His force was so strong inward he couldn't contain it late in the swing.

I never took a MORAD lesson but have read notes of someone who has and have also watched and read everything I could. Love the swing, attitude, all of it.

I would have love to talk pivot with him and show him something about the club itself that creates more torque without some of that retention (one being in the right hand from the top). You can have opposing tensions, that's great, but you can also trade and transfer torque other ways, some much easier.

Hogan did it. But he was a tad weaker post impact because he had to move laterally to allow for his secret move. Yeah I said that, along with every other yahoo...his secret move...:)

But I love MORAD and understand why he pushed positions...because they are easier to see, pressures aren't and they are difficult to explain and teach well.

One more thing, how can any good ball striker be bad at putting, especially one who understand the depths of the golf swing?. Was it nerves? I can't imagine it being technique or anything that you guys can't figure out. Maybe it was overthinking on the greens?


Isn't Mac still teaching? Could you not still talk to him? I have heard he has mellowed out a bit with age.

Hogan's secret move? I always love that!

As far as putting, I had the same problem but the proper realization a few years ago. I actually don't putt anymore. I use a chipping method and do a special set up with my putter to turn it into a club that is not really a putter anymore.

Think of it this way.. as we get closer and closer to the hole, our clubs get shorter, heavier, stiffer, and we use round grips. LIe angles are still progressively in proper perspective..... then when you get onto the green, your caddie hands you a much lighter club, way more upright, a very whippy shaft, some weird deformed grip. It's far from any kind of common sense.... other than the sheep mentality of "everyone else does it."

I have a whole wonderful program in the private student area of ABS that gets people who can't putt into a method that they can. Very good success rate. I turned a former touring pro friend of mine on to it after taking him for $200 on the putting green.. he couldn't believe what I was doing, and I set him up and he has been putting great now and winning all kinds of sectional PGA events with it. Still using it a few years later and he used to change putters, broomsticks, all that almost weekly.

I call it chip rolling.
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Re: Holding Shaft Flex... The Holy Grail of Golf

Postby nfbandon » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:31 pm

Had the opportunity to watch this Mac video from years ago over the weekend. I had seen bits and pieces of this, but always thought it was too position oriented. Watching it in its entirely I actually think it is pretty simple. The focus on the head and eyeline being still makes sense, a 45 angle grip (relatively strong) makes sense because it reduces the need for forearm rotation (which Mac says is his goal) and gets the clubhead going up rather than around, arms straight under the body at address, the right arm never more than 90 degrees on the backswing, and downswing just drop the right shoulder a bit and then rotate keeping the bend in the body all the way to the finish. If you watch the Hogan video I posted you will see the same thing. I have heard some say you want to imagine the head of a pillow and you keep it there and just swivel it from impact to finish. Everything is based on being in balance. I also like the parts where he demonstrates release facing you. No rollover but the path (going inside with his body) is such that I wouldn't call it a hold. No hand manipulation at all.

In later years it looks like Mac violates some of these intentions, but I guess he was always seeking.

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Re: Holding Shaft Flex... The Holy Grail of Golf

Postby Frozen Divots » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:07 pm

true slew.jpg
true slew.jpg (38.88 KiB) Viewed 1874 times


If you drop your trail shoulder, and want angular velocity, which is what Mac was chasing...a true slew is required...(ahem...hint, hint...it's been solved, Mac, see how it turns? I know someone who developed a pivot for that).
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Re: Holding Shaft Flex... The Holy Grail of Golf

Postby LesMurray » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:23 pm

Here is a quick discussion with John on how he came up with the notion of holding shaft flex.

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Re: Holding Shaft Flex... The Holy Grail of Golf

Postby Wknhacker » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:34 pm

I’m curious as to how that player could lose the ability, in terms of his technique, to hold shaft flex so quickly. One would think that once a player masters the art of holding shaft flex and develops the feel in the hands and brain it would be hard to then lose it so suddenly.

The other question I have for you Lag is whether the feel of holding shaft flex is different in graphite shafts vs steel shafts. From a personal perspective I get more feel and feedback from iron shafts than I do graphite shafts.
"I have a tip that can take five strokes off anyone's golf game: it's called an eraser." - Arnold Palmer
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Re: Holding Shaft Flex... The Holy Grail of Golf

Postby lagpressure » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:59 am

It could be easy to lose the feel of holding shaft flex for any number of reasons.

The first thing that comes to my mind based upon experience is just how one's body is feeling.
If I have some stiffness, some ache in my back for instance, I might not rotate as aggressively through the strike, yet I still want
to drive the ball the same distance... therefore I might come down from the top just as fast, but not be a assertive with my pivot rotation
as I was yesterday, last week, last month etc.

Another reason might be that I start aiming a bit right for some reason, and start coming slightly OTT and I get away with this for a while and it seems I am making better contact with the ball because in reality I am just coming in a bit steeper and shutting down the face. This is turn leads me to believe I am still hitting the ball well and just a far as before, but in reality I am striking it with just a slight bit less loft.
Over time, I start hitting it a bit worse and realize I need to take harder look at what is going on etc. I realize I what has been happening, correct my alignment and then further realize I need to get a lot busier with the PIPT.

Yet another reason could be my backswing starts getting a bit too long and relaxed, and I basically start swinging instead of hitting, and this works for a while because I am timing the straightening of the shaft into impact until suddenly I am not.

There could be other reasons, but just a few examples I personally experienced over the years.
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