Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby HB51 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:48 pm

been working on the "falling into left leg" ....as Lag says, its sophisticated and advanced, and attempting to do it can make thing go all "wonky"

What I find so difficult is trying to get the weight (and torso) transferred and pressured into the back side WHILE falling to the left, as I approach transition and though transition.

When the thought is to fall left, I find myself never getting a good rotation fully back to the right and pressure into the right foot, and I quickly go left with the upper body get out in front of the ball, and don't get a good hip rotation through the strike

... I think it's going to take a lot of work....Snead squat seems much more attainable and I think I had it down pretty well...but I now find myself wanting to adapt the "fall left" move. I'm sure Hogan was well aware of the Snead squat, but chose not to go that route...for some reason...
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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby Turfrider » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:26 pm

What has helped me was watching Bradley's video of Hogan rear view. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul918nyx8Yo. It was an eye opener to see how much his right butt cheek starts to move towards the target at the top of the backswing. You really have to press into the right leg to do that, like a pitcher winding up. That press into the right leg gets the center of mass to move laterally just a bit which sets one up to rotate. I'm sure I don't do it like him but it has helped me sense the center of mass moving through the shot. I like to think of it as my inner cannon ball sitting just below my belly button, in the middle of my pelvis. How to get that to move through the shot, that's been my focus of late.

I think someone today who utilizes the same concept is Henrik Stenson. His swing starter is really a back shift into his right butt cheek. From there his turn is pretty much half done.
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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby Range Rat » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:31 am

Nice to see Two hanging out and having a sandwich with coffee at our traditional family restaurant. :D
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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby nfbandon » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:34 am

HB51 many have tried, including me, and no one else has mastered that. Good luck.
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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby lagpressure » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:14 am

nfbandon wrote:HB51 many have tried, including me, and no one else has mastered that. Good luck.


I agree, it's not something we see much, or not as beautifully and fluid as Hogan did... which then begs for the next question... why?

It's a move that has to be learned. Nobody (I don't think) is just going to wake up in the morning and do that naturally.
So given that it needs to be learned, someone needs to know how to teach it. For that someone to teach it, they must both know how to do it,
how to train to do it, and must be able to demonstrate that properly themselves. In that lies the challenge for the instructor.

I would put it in the same category as slotting the club... and I mean the move that actually gets the shaft below plane, laid off etc.. not just some upright transition going back to on plane.

Surely the Snead squat is easier. Anyone that has ever sat in a chair can relate to it. You turn, you sit, you push, you rotate and clear. Essentially a 4 step process.

Hogan's move actually simplifies that whole process.... assuming you can learn to do it. The push become passive, and I believe that this is actually what Hogan meant by "The Free Ride Down".
It is simply a fall, a free fall. He doesn't say much beyond that. Doesn't talk about what has to be done or how that is going to affect the left leg either. No word on how that relates to transition,
slotting the club, or even the grip for that matter. It all is very interwoven and is a package deal. It's not a move in and of itself... just like everything else in the golf swing.

It's a move that is based upon very large, big, tangible opposing forces that very few golfers have ever had the experience of feeling.

I see it as a technique, a viable technique that is well thought out by design, that can be learned, can be taught and ultimately can be mastered. It's consistent with the virtues of martial arts, chi, dantien,
and can greatly simplify the golf swing.... for those who apply and master it.
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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby lagpressure » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:27 am

HB51 wrote:been working on the "falling into left leg" ....as Lag says, its sophisticated and advanced, and attempting to do it can make thing go all "wonky"

What I find so difficult is trying to get the weight (and torso) transferred and pressured into the back side WHILE falling to the left, as I approach transition and though transition.

When the thought is to fall left, I find myself never getting a good rotation fully back to the right and pressure into the right foot, and I quickly go left with the upper body get out in front of the ball, and don't get a good hip rotation through the strike

... I think it's going to take a lot of work....Snead squat seems much more attainable and I think I had it down pretty well...but I now find myself wanting to adapt the "fall left" move. I'm sure Hogan was well aware of the Snead squat, but chose not to go that route...for some reason...


We'll talk about this on the private student forum side so people reading here don't get all "wonky" :lol:
There is a technique and an order of things in learning it..... just like everything else. The transfer of weight, forearm rotation, slotting, left leg training, setting up the opposing forces, even the grip may need attention.
You are correct, you have to get fully turned or all bets are off. Stack and Tilt this is not!
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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby norcalvol » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:07 am

I found this passage from Mike Maves' e-book regarding Hogan's weigh shift... which amplifies Lag's and Twomasters' responses to my comment on the gif earlier:

HOGAN USED A BACKSHIFT!! ... IT REQUIRES YOU TO TURN SO FAR AND FIRMLY INTO AND AROUND THE RIGHT LEG
THAT YOU GET THROWN BACK LEFT AND TARGETWARD THROUGH THE RIGHT HEEL!! THE BEHAVIOUR OF THE RIGHT
FOOT IN THIS MOTION IS CALLED EVERSION AND THIS IS THE CRITICAL PART OF THE MOVE AND MECHANISM THAT
HOGAN USED TO AUTOMATE HIS TRANSITION!!
MOE NORMAN RELIED ON THIS SAME PHENOMENON TO AUTOMATE HIS TRANSITION.
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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby lagpressure » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:24 am

norcalvol wrote:I found this passage from Mike Maves' e-book regarding Hogan's weigh shift... which amplifies Lag's and Twomasters' responses to my comment on the gif earlier:

HOGAN USED A BACKSHIFT!! ... IT REQUIRES YOU TO TURN SO FAR AND FIRMLY INTO AND AROUND THE RIGHT LEG
THAT YOU GET THROWN BACK LEFT AND TARGETWARD THROUGH THE RIGHT HEEL!! THE BEHAVIOUR OF THE RIGHT
FOOT IN THIS MOTION IS CALLED EVERSION AND THIS IS THE CRITICAL PART OF THE MOVE AND MECHANISM THAT
HOGAN USED TO AUTOMATE HIS TRANSITION!!
MOE NORMAN RELIED ON THIS SAME PHENOMENON TO AUTOMATE HIS TRANSITION.


No doubt, you have to fully turn.
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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby nfbandon » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:53 am

Yes that is easily seen and that part can be done pretty easily, but folding it into a cohesive whole is the trick. No one has done it and I don't think I have read anyone that can teach it.
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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby lagpressure » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:11 pm

nfbandon wrote:Yes that is easily seen and that part can be done pretty easily, but folding it into a cohesive whole is the trick. No one has done it and I don't think I have read anyone that can teach it.


It depends on how one would define "doing it".

No one is going to swing exactly like Ben Hogan. No one is going to swing exactly like Gary Player or Tom Watson.
Golf swings are like snowflakes in their individuality.

Certainly many great strikers have has big lateral weight shifts, Nelson, Knudson, Trevino, but I would agree that none of them delayed the opening of the hips as long as Hogan did.

I would consider this move to include a lateral movement of the hips working toward the target while the torso, shoulders, golf club are still loading into the backswing. The hips would not really start their opening rotation until a significant amount of lateral hip movement has occurred.

It is more complicated in that the execution has nothing to do with positions, and this cannot be done in slow motion. This only works with full speed real time application and movement of the body and the opposing forces and pressures that enable it to happen.
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