Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby Range Rat » Fri May 04, 2018 8:37 am

Interested in hearing what ABSers think about only McHattons words here. I always found him fascinating to listen to. The crux of it is within the first 30 seconds, and not so much the discussion about a "figure 8" with the hips, rather more about the center of the hip structure moving to the trail side hip at the top of the swing. That orientation would seem to speak to Hogan's elastic band diagram in 5L, and it would also require more downloading into the right leg and perhaps much like Lag speaks about because the center has changed. I think it also accentuates saving right arm through the zone. Thoughts? No calculus please, my brain is fried. :lol:
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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby LesMurray » Fri May 04, 2018 10:24 am

Here is the ABS version of that very thing. Lag describes it as falling onto your left side then firing with all guns. I'm finding that slotting the club is a requirement in order to keep the lower body fully engaged and keeping the right arm out of the equation.

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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby Ded2Journey » Sun May 06, 2018 5:43 am

I personally agree with McHatton. However, there is a very distinct interaction of the pivot, the 5L stance diagram, and the C6 neck joint. They all play very key roles...

Simply, you cannot have one without the other.
"People have always been telling me what I can't do. I guess I have wanted to show them. That's been one of my driving forces all my life." -Ben Hogan
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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby lagpressure » Sun May 06, 2018 4:36 pm

Hogan.gif
Hogan.gif (242.85 KiB) Viewed 2230 times


Hogan in 1948.

If you watch Hogan's head, it's pretty clear that Knudson was correct in that the head has nothing to do with the golf swing. It certainly is not the center of the golf swing.

I took three captures here. Address, 3/4 of the way back to were his head was farthest right (his perspective) then finally where his head moved laterally the farthest target wise before stabilizing through impact.

You can see it moves back significantly, then really lunges forward and downward do to the action of his lower body.
Hogan implemented both a huge lateral hip movement AND a huge rotational movement.

Hogan and Knudson probably had the most dynamic and effective lower body action that worked in two ways. First to change the direction of the club, then to delay the rotation of the upper body and forearms so they could be accelerated through the strike.... much like shifting into first gear, then power clutching or popping the clutch into 2nd and 3rd.

It's a very compelling action and worth exploring if you have the patience and direction to master it.
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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby Ded2Journey » Mon May 07, 2018 5:31 am

Lag,

Although the head/body moves, Texarkana (Slicefixer) was able to show that certain cervical vertebrae do not. Specifically, I believe that it was the C4 or C6. To me this is one of our anchor points in the swing....

Good Video:
https://youtu.be/wPI5jJOIVCs


Thoughts?
"People have always been telling me what I can't do. I guess I have wanted to show them. That's been one of my driving forces all my life." -Ben Hogan
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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby lagpressure » Mon May 07, 2018 8:36 am

Ded2Journey wrote:Lag,

Although the head/body moves, Texarkana (Slicefixer) was able to show that certain cervical vertebrae do not. Specifically, I believe that it was the C4 or C6. To me this is one of our anchor points in the swing....

Good Video:
https://youtu.be/wPI5jJOIVCs


Thoughts?


I think conceptually people make Hogan's hip action more complicated than it needs to be. First, we have to ask, "why would he work his hips that way?"
It's really simple... to delay the rotation of the entire pivot much farther into the downswing.... so that it can be greatly accelerated through the strike... which in turn strives to hold shaft flex and load pressure into the hands for masterful ball control. A simple straightforward concept completely lost in the modern teaching methods.

It's the 2000 year old Martial Arts principal of creating power and control from the core, the Chi, or Dan tien.

We have to transfer weight from the right foot to the left.... because the mass of the club moves from outside our right foot to outside our left foot. We have to counter balance that on the backswing, then into the downswing. Add in CF and all ... and it's magnified.

So to hit a golf ball properly, we have to rotate and transfer weight.. so Hogan, once he created hip and shoulder rotation ... range of motion.. and fully transferred weight to the right.... he then transferred weight left before unleashing his rotation. This creates the delay which in turn allows for an great increase in acceleration of the pivot through the strike... because he didn't use it early... which is what the velocity instructor junkies today are after.

Hogan of course messed everyone up.. probably intentionally... by saying he started his downswing by opening his hips... of course he didn't do this.. he did the opposite. He could have said that he initiated the downswng with a lateral movement of the hips, but that would have been only half the story because the hips don't really move themselves very well. They are controlled by the knees and or the torso.

Try to move your hips without any movement in your knees or your torso. Maybe you can do it better than I? :?

Do I agree with Gregg McHatton's explanation on Hogan's hip movement ... no I don't... not that explanation. I completely disagree with it. You don't turn the hips, open the left hip, then push the right hip through.

All you have to do is look at it to see that is not what is happening.

They rotate clockwise (backswing) ... they then move laterally toward the target... then they rotate almost 180 degrees through the strike and beyond.

Now can you learn to do this easily? No, not in chronological order. Just like you can't learn the golf swing effectively by assuming that a proper set up and backswing is going to fool proof your downswing and strike through impact. No.

The difference between Knudson and Hogan was Moe. I would bet my last dollar that Moe told George NOT to straighten the left knee post impact... to flatten out and stabilize lowpoint.

So like all things ABS, you start from THE OTHER END, then work your way backward.
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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby Range Rat » Mon May 07, 2018 12:44 pm

lagpressure wrote:Do I agree with Gregg McHatton's explanation on Hogan's hip movement ... no I don't... not that explanation. I completely disagree with it. You don't turn the hips, open the left hip, then push the right hip through.


McHatton had nuance in the video, starting around 3:03 he talks about Hogan staging the hip turn by "a gradual sliding turn" during the free ride then full tilt boogie, so it seems Greg is acknowledging the lateral piece. So the lateral piece along with the right hip becoming a "new center" seems to fit in the key hole quite snugly in order to get through the strike. But it's really not a new center, just thought it was a cool idea of his. :)
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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby lagpressure » Mon May 07, 2018 8:34 pm

Range Rat wrote:
lagpressure wrote:Do I agree with Gregg McHatton's explanation on Hogan's hip movement ... no I don't... not that explanation. I completely disagree with it. You don't turn the hips, open the left hip, then push the right hip through.


McHatton had nuance in the video, starting around 3:03 he talks about Hogan staging the hip turn by "a gradual sliding turn" during the free ride then full tilt boogie, so it seems Greg is acknowledging the lateral piece. So the lateral piece along with the right hip becoming a "new center" seems to fit in the key hole quite snugly in order to get through the strike. But it's really not a new center, just thought it was a cool idea of his. :)


I don't see it as a gradual sliding turn... not gradual..
He's making sure he gets his weight over the right foot and leg on the backswing, but once that happens, it has to be a quick move left... not gradual. Hogan had a very quick tempo.. so this had to happen very fast.... it had to happen before he opened up and quickly rotated his hips through the strike. Hogan's lateral move would start during the later part of his backswing because it needed to establish that new hip rotation hub quickly.

It should also be noted as to where Hogan's weight ended up. He finished very flat and square upon his left foot. Not many golfers do this. Knudson was quoted as being very impressed by this and he said he worked on it tirelessly for 6 months to learn to finish flat upon his left foot. While it was first obvious to widen the stance, it's what Knudson later talked about moving weight into the ball of the left foot, not the heel. So assuming Hat is referring to Hogan's hip action once the lateral movement is finished, then I see his logic, but the second part of the right hip moving through would be the work of a snapping left leg, because Hogan didn't snap his leg into impact.

Again, the hips don't move by themselves. It's vapor trail stuff. Study the knees and the torso rotation.
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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby Ded2Journey » Tue May 08, 2018 5:20 am

lagpressure wrote:
Range Rat wrote:
lagpressure wrote:
Again, the hips don't move by themselves. It's vapor trail stuff. Study the knees and the torso rotation.


Boy do I agree with this...but I think there is an important distinction between the way Hogan "gripped" the ground and others. Additionally, his hip mobility must have been off the charts. More rabbit holes for later...

First, It is definitely a reaction. I do want to stress that "feel" is not real... I KNOW it feels like a figure 8 movement (which I totally agree with too on McHattons side--because he appears to be a feel teacher), but there is a lateral shift. As Lag and twomasters have said many times...you must open up and go lateral to maintain balance with the club on the 430 line at P3...assuming right side loading. TOTAL VAPOR TRAIL...

Secondly, even Hogan "felt" a shift of his left glute behind and away from him (right side loading), and he published it in 5L...so again, you CANNOT debate "feels" over video, because they will never match up.

Finally, I think training the "figure 8" movement is a good thing. However, if you're taking the club away and loading correctly through your transition--this AUTOMATICALLY happens. Part of the reason we do Mod 2/3-before Mod 5, right? Does anyone really think Snead thought about the "Snead Squat"? No way, he just had to get that club back on plane, and with his waltz-like rhythm, he was able to create a lot of power--so he probably just ran with it. Something tells me he learned how to do this by hitting rocks without shoes on growing up.

Seems this is really a preference of teaching styles to me...

RR,

Do you prefer to "feel" movements you're trying to make? Or to just trust that your leverage and pressures with take care of the movements all by themselves?
"People have always been telling me what I can't do. I guess I have wanted to show them. That's been one of my driving forces all my life." -Ben Hogan
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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby Range Rat » Tue May 08, 2018 12:01 pm

lagpressure wrote:So assuming Hat is referring to Hogan's hip action once the lateral movement is finished, then I see his logic, but the second part of the right hip moving through would be the work of a snapping left leg, because Hogan didn't snap his leg into impact.

Again, the hips don't move by themselves. It's vapor trail stuff. Study the knees and the torso rotation.


10-4 on vapor trails but even those can be revealing- those that struggle getting weight through the strike have the trail side hip coming through last, almost like an afterthought. McHatton did discuss Hogan's lead leg too in another video, I think he said Hogan straightened the left leg without losing flex via snapping, and put Cristo into that dynamic. I'll dig it up and post as it might go along with your thoughts on it here. :)
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