Mike Austin Swing

Re: Mike Austin Swing

Postby Frozen Divots » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:29 am

Mike Austin wasn't a swinger or a hitter because the pivot is so different than conventional. His aim was a 'perfect circle' and his pivot was merely something that allowed it by 'giving and adjusting' around that path. Backshifting and conventional shoulder turn throws the circle off and a club re-route is then necessary. Mike flips this around and the re-route, or adjustment, is the body, allowing for the arm 'assembly' to freewheel as perfect as he can make it.
The lead arm finds its position on the chest and stay there. If it drops, you're cooked.The whole circle is gone. He sets the 'measurement' at set up and seeing as it is locked there, something else needs to happen or else you have a rigid, incomplete swing. The compound pivot and the trail side unwind 'under' the lead arm to get the clubhead on the ball. This is why he promoted the release he did and saw the 'roll' as a change in the path that did not truly match the pivot. It took him time to realize this and that's why he made the change.
He threw a football underhand, as he has said. That is death in a conventional pivot. It's gold in a compound pivot.

He DID release from the top. Pictures and video are illusion. The release was hidden by the pivot action. It stays relative to it and seems to be a hold, but it is not. He is chasing the spine angle shift and the club looks to be 'held' when it is really freewheeling along with the pivot. If he did not release (unwind trail arm, not lead arm) from the top, the club would have nothing on it halfway down and if that happened in a compound pivot he would hit the ball half as far and then you really wouldn't even need the compound pivot to begin with.
A compound pivot powers early and is taken over. A proper conventional pivot never gets 'taken over'. Different animals.

People complain about the action being hard on the hips, it is if you exaggerate the motion like he does when showing people the action. It is not a large move IF the feet are the proper width apart. Too wide and you will need a big shift and your hips will soon ache. Narrower stance and a smaller shift and there is no pain if you have healthy hips joints. Like he has said, his pivot is a slightly exaggerated 'female walk'.
In reality Mike has flipped conventional around. Something has to 'give' while the other 'takes'. Kind of like you do't mix 'hitting' and 'swinging', with Austin you don't mix compound with conventional. That's what people end up doing. They backshift (tailbone going the wrong way, towards the target) and you are in trouble. If they don't backshift, they 'sway' too much. And some do it all correct except they don't throw the football underhand.

The first step to understanding this swing is to get that he is after the perfect circle and the body adapts to that.
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Re: Mike Austin Swing

Postby lagpressure » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:03 am

As far as hitting or swinging, one is either holding shaft flex into impact or not.
If the player is trying to "time" the straightening (Longitudinal) of the shaft to happen at lowpoint then they are swinging.
If they are trying to accelerate the clubhead into impact and beyond with a pre stressed shaft they are hitting.

It's one or the other. The intentions are clear and nothing mysterious about it.

There are a lot of ways to go about either way.... with how the body, arms and hands are applying themselves.
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Re: Mike Austin Swing

Postby Frozen Divots » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:14 am

His lead measurement allows for the conventional 'timing' and his trail unwind allows for the pressure, like throwing a football underhand. Plenty of trail pressure there. Each side of his upper body on are different planets, if that makes sense.
Lead would be more like pendulum, trail is unwinding throw. Neither dominates.

This is part of the 'compound'. Not just 'post to post' but also trail and lead actions. Compound as in the definition of the word- two or more separate elements. It's a fusion, which is why I say he isn't hitting or swinging. Or you could say he is doing both but not one only. Compound pivot = compound action.

Conventional pivot has a structure that doesn't allow for compound action in a consistent, reliable manner.
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Re: Mike Austin Swing

Postby lagpressure » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:51 pm

Frozen Divots wrote:His lead measurement allows for the conventional 'timing' and his trail unwind allows for the pressure, like throwing a football underhand. Plenty of trail pressure there. Each side of his upper body on are different planets, if that makes sense.
Lead would be more like pendulum, trail is unwinding throw. Neither dominates.

This is part of the 'compound'. Not just 'post to post' but also trail and lead actions. Compound as in the definition of the word- two or more separate elements. It's a fusion, which is why I say he isn't hitting or swinging. Or you could say he is doing both but not one only. Compound pivot = compound action.

Conventional pivot has a structure that doesn't allow for compound action in a consistent, reliable manner.


Then we could look at what is happening at BOTH shoulder sockets through the strike. Where are they going? Horizontal, Vertical, Lateral?
The obvious being that the club is attached to the fingers or hands.... the wrists and arms.... whatever their activity or passiveness ends up moving through
the shoulder sockets one way or another.

You can strike a golf ball with just wrists and forearm rotation with zero shoulder movement. A golf ball can also be struck with only shoulder rotation with zero contribution from forearms and wrist.

But getting back to the pivot, the collective of motion of the shoulders, torso, hips, legs, feet.... that all will move the shoulder sockets through the hitting area. Are they stalling waiting for catch up? Accelerating? Seeking a constant velocity? What was he promoting there?
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Re: Mike Austin Swing

Postby Range Rat » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:07 pm

Frozen Divots wrote:
The lead arm finds its position on the chest and stay there. If it drops, you're cooked.The whole circle is gone.
The first step to understanding this swing is to get that he is after the perfect circle and the body adapts to that.


Welcome back to the dog pound Frozen. I seemed to be following your post overall but, like always with my rat size brain, seemed to have conflicting thoughts, although I liked your comments.

Quickly made up this gif and it seems like the lead arm is not staying in its position and is dropping in comparison to the trail shoulder line. As to the perfect circle, if he was moving on a perfect circle would it mean that the strike occurs on a distinct change of direction vector since a circle is 360 separate vectors.
output_nvpo4R.gif
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Re: Mike Austin Swing

Postby Frozen Divots » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:05 pm

On the gif Mike isn't doing a true compound pivot. Not sure why he isn't but there are many swings, usually shorter irons, where he isn't doing it. Probably a short iron, control, trajectory thing. No idea but I would have loved to ask him the reason. He probably would say he is doing it and want to fight about it.

He doesn't swing in a perfect circle, but he tries to. The lead arm cannot drop because you do not want the hands to return to the start position. The lead arm needs to go more out and away while the trail forearm/hand unwinds (from the top) and sends the shaft 'under that'. Maxed out ulnar deviation going on. Almost like you are pitching the trail hand underneath the lead arm path. This way you get the lead arm 'pendulum (I hate that term in golf) and the trail arm pitch.

As far as the shoulder sockets, each humerus has a different path 'intention'. It's not like a Manuel De La Torre 'swing the humerus down and around naturally' thing. That's fine to do but not in a compound pivot.
When in Rome, do as the Romans. When in a compound pivot, on the trail, do as the trail. On the lead, do as the lead.

So the lead feel is out and away/around while the trail side pitches/unwinds/throws into/under that 'assembly'.

I play with compound pivot sometimes, and my 'feel' is keeping the lead humerus up on the chest while the trail hand/forearm unwinds into max ulnar deviation (also manipulating the lead wrist), sending the club under the lead arm (a feel), completing the lower 180degree of the swing circle. Imagine if you had a harness on that limited the range of the lead humerus. Something that won't let it drop down as far. You'll see what you need to do to get the clubhead on the ball.
With a conventional pivot you'll have a hell of a time doing it. With a compound pivot, it's easy. At impact you'll feel like the hands are out and up too far. It's a weird feeling that doesn't seem like it will work at first. In a conventional pivot you'd most likely whiff the ball.

You won't lose trail pressure on the shaft thru the ball. If you do it's because you didn't unwind, you slapped early and gave it away or never truly unwound it from the top. Again, an exaggerated feel/explanation is the lead arm is horizontal around at chest height while the trail is vertical, dead underhand. But remember, the chest is acting in a different manner in a compound pivot.

If you watch Mike doing one arm swings you will see that the lead arm is a swinger and the trail arm is a hit. You may think 'impossible' to do both. It's not. This is why he hit the ball so damn far.
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Re: Mike Austin Swing

Postby Range Rat » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:48 am

Having a difficult time overall following your points Frozen, but that's on me. I've been working hard farming on my own private Idaho and haven't thought about Austin's delivery approach. It seems he prefers having the lead shoulder getting higher in transition since his secondary tilt is becoming more pronounced at that time, since they run hand in hand.

Is there a way to define conventional and compound pivot somehow?

Frozen Divots wrote: His aim was a 'perfect circle'..... The release was hidden by the pivot action. It stays relative to it and seems to be a hold, but it is not. He is chasing the spine angle shift .


L chasing T?
:)
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Re: Mike Austin Swing

Postby k2baloo » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:16 pm

L chasing T... I remember that thread.

I'm also slightly confused on some of the Mike Austin stuff. I do get the throw piece though. It's an intention and really has nothing to do with the amount of lag you see in the videos/pictures. Monte has his cast drill which speaks about a similar thing.

I'm lost on the compound pivot though - does that just mean a combination of lateral and rotational movement? Seems like tons of players do that, so I don't understand what makes the MA pivot so special.
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Re: Mike Austin Swing

Postby Frozen Divots » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:31 pm

The compound pivot is a pivot where there is no back shift, primarily. I am not saying there isn't a tour player who pivots without a backshift, there may be. When I studied the tour swings a few years back I found no one who pivoted without a back shift. This makes it unique. If there is some one who currently pivots in a compound manner, I'd like to see it. There may be someone...

The trail hand action in the Austin swing would be a softball riseball. Google 'riseball' and study the total hand action. I mean TOTAL ACTION. Again, no one one tour did this (when I researched it several years back).
You CANNOT throw an efficient riseball efficiently in a conventional pivot. Not possible.

Now...look at the lead hand response to a riseball. It's the lead action of Mike Austin. You cannot do BOTH without a compound pivot. There is no swing out there ever that allows for trail and lead action to have 'their say', outside of the the compound pivot/Austin swing. That is why he was so long. If anyone sees different, post the swing.

I am not promoting Mike Austins swing. I am clarifying it. I see too many posts that define it incorrectly.

Now, why does no one on tour do this? I would say because it is to difficult to time. It's all or absolutely nothing (which is why I think Mike did NOT compound pivot on short irons, margin of error too small. The mistake with a wedge is a disaster).
It's a tough motion. Just like the riseball is a tough pitch to throw. It took me a few years to get a good riseball down.

But, if you can do it, you will be longer.

BTW, every golf swing on earth has a softball pitch equivalent. An exact equivalent. For some reason the golf world doesn't like it when a swing can be deduced to pitch. But that's the way it is.
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Re: Mike Austin Swing

Postby Range Rat » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:56 am

Will this work as a discussion picture?
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