Classic Rounds with Classic Gear on Classic Tracks

Re: Classic Rounds with Classic Gear on Classic Tracks

Postby k2baloo » Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:18 pm

norcalvol wrote:
k2baloo wrote:I hit my dynapowers with a peak height around 80 feet while modern irons I average a peak height just around 100 or just a touch over. Definitely a different flight. I don't have M85s yet, but will have to pick up a set eventually. I wouldn't be surprised if they're even lower since that is a 50's iron.


How do the shafts influence this? I would think more than just the make/model/age.


Probably. I haven't tested it, but I'm sure it's a combo of the heads and shafts.
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Re: Classic Rounds with Classic Gear on Classic Tracks

Postby Steve P » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:52 pm

I was talking m85 driver and woods. My old set was Wilson staff for irons. I never noticed a big difference in irons. Diff lofts that's it.
With that m85 driver though it was low bullets for me. Kinda fun I guess.
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Re: Classic Rounds with Classic Gear on Classic Tracks

Postby LesMurray » Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:40 pm

Played a wonderful course today as part of my Men's Club Team Match Play tournament. We played at Rancho Park on the west side of LA next to Culver City. This is the course where they used to hold the LA Open and where Arnold Palmer took a 12 on 18 (2 shots into the driving range and 2 out of bounds). We played from the tips and it was a beast. I felt lucky to shoot a 92 and win my match 4&3. Two holes were over 460 yards and it seems almost every hole was tight. Many of the fairways were sloping so you had to favor one side or the other. The course played even longer because some of the fairways were still a little wet from the rains last week and we weren't getting much rollout. The course overall was in great shape and wasn't too crowded though it was still a 5 hour+ round.

I was using my MacGregor Tommy Armour persimmons and '57 Wilson Staff irons. I handicapped myself by only bringing a 2-wood instead of a driver. And then on the back 9 I ended up just using 3-wood as I couldn't keep the 2 wood in the fairway. Only lost 1 ball when I put my drive on the first tee into the parking lot. But it wasn't for trying that's for sure.

If I could get an early morning tee time or play during the week I would like to come back and play it again. This time, I would choose the blue tees instead of the blacks.
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Re: Classic Rounds with Classic Gear on Classic Tracks

Postby flatlies » Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:26 am

Some thoughts for all of you today, was reading some old Let's Talk Lag's Golf Machine and got me thinking. With that I read again about handicaps going down 2 strokes over the last 30 years and some of you know that I think this is entirely incorrect. I believe that course ratings and slopes have not been adjusted enough for how much easier the new equipment makes the game.

I think that courses that have not been changed much since 1980 or older are at least 4 and up to 8 strokes more difficult with the old equipment and ball, and from my research course ratings and slopes have been adjusted at most to compensate for a 2 stroke difference in difficulty and in my view handicaps have went up an average of 2 or more strokes. The course I work at has not been lengthened since it was fully build in the mid 80s, yet the stroke rating is at most 1.5 strokes more difficult than the mid 80s. Course was 7,000 then and 7,000 today, minimum 2-4 clubs less into greens, bunkers force accurate shots when can't be cleared, and expect everyone to think it is only 1.5 strokes more difficult than in mid 80s. That is how politics work and the reason many people are duped into believing number that do not truly exist, the numbers politics shows are not about many things are not wrong based on the system and baseline the numbers are drawn from and only a few realize these things. If the baseline that everything is figured on is incorrect and no one checks these things then people go on thinking lies are the truth and truth remains hidden with most things in life. Think about the reason it is called seeking truth and not truth, not in plain sight and most people believe what each would see and not see what each believes. No one thinks anymore, dazzled by the magicians of marketing.

Nothing works this way in everyday things, by that thinking we could have an accurate accounting of the economy without adjusting for inflation. Don't account for inflation and the baseline is inaccurate, numbers will be correct from that baseline but no one trained in economics would be that dumb to not start with an accurate baseline. Like course records today, a 61 is the same statistical amount of strokes as it was in 1960 or 1980 but is nowhere near the same feat and can't be argued by the best of debaters. If you think it can be argued then tell me who it wealthier, a person with a million dollars today or a person with a million dollars in 1980. Statistically the same numerical amount but not the same feat. Much more work and skill went into making a million in 1980 than today, when adjusted to an accurate baseline that million in 1980 is equal to about $2.95 million. A 61 is great today but is not the same as a 61 in 1980, there is no valid argument that can accurately counter this when all variables and a correct baseline are established. If you teach someone to read 15% faster but retain 15% less does that make them smarter or is it better, something to ponder. You have widened the river but made shallow its depths. Stay where you are and you know more about less, advance that way and you know less about more, neither is optimal. You must increase speed of reading and ability to retain what is read together, knowing more about more. Golf has lost this.

Same strategy is applied to make up, modern equipment is the make up of golf. One puts a mask on a beautiful face and told your are not pretty enough, you should look like these models, spend money to draw beauty on your face because you can't better yourself, leave it to the pros at the make up companies, and one puts a mask on the beautiful art named golf. Marketers say mask your flaws and the true level of your skill with equipment because you are not good enough to play old equipment, your inferior to pros and can't learn, your self esteem is lowered without even knowing it and you believe it, the ego is called out and that is something that most egos are not humble enough to accept. Make up was originally made to accent and enhance beauty, golf equipment was originally made to do the same, accent and enhance skill, not mask lack of skill. Telling you it is not for you to improve skill, that is laughable, keep your skill level the same and the equipment will make you better. Good thing this way of thinking wasn't prevalent throughout human development or there would have been no progress.

Truly think about how dumb that is, we have moved backwards to a point where popular culture would have you believe humans are at a good skill level, don't improve and stay there, technology will do the rest. In many ways the Ancient Greeks were far ahead of us and some would argue almost all, if that way of advanced thinking was applied today by the masses there would be no limit to what we could achieve, no hunger, no survival related problems, the only thing to do after that would be what many believe to be the true purpose of human life, to be better yourself, seems we have stopped that and are at an acceptable level of development for most. Nobody cares about people that are hungry, but if everybodys TV went out at once then there would be an uproar of the people. This is where we are, when irony becomes ironic and everything in moderation, including moderation is the way of life.

Humans are highly intelligent beyond most understanding of our own current nature individually, kind, and humble but in mass and large groups humans behave the same as social animals and equally predictable, cruel, and in complete opposition to the truth and facts because that is what the group is doing and we follow the group with the thought of safety in numbers like gazelles. Continue on this way, it is designed to a depth most would laugh at because no one is that smart each says to himself. The lion would always have you think he is dumb until the moment you realize he is not. In reality marketers are lions and consumer groups are gazelles, but marketers know that temporarily overcoming the ego is a powerful position in the short term by making you think them the marketers are gazelles working for you the lions that are the consumer groups whose egos are falsely inflated and in a weak position. In reality history will show the opposite, marketers making a long term play for the ego and making it more powerful for themselves while knowing predictable human behavior will have the egos of consumer groups in a constantly weak position, always needing to fulfill itself to gain perceived power when in truth there is none. Consumer groups egos continue to gain perceived power when there is none, false gain and if accounted for modern equipment would by far be their most terrible investment by percentage of value lost, buy a new car 10 times in a row and you still will not match the depreciation of buying modern equipment every year. Marketers egos continue to gain actual power while telling the consumer groups that each of them drive business. When put in this perspective it is funny the length an ego will go to in believing its own lies, if animals had our inflated perceptions then nature itself would fail but I have yet to see a gazelle attack a lion thinking it was the one in control. Maybe animals are smarter than we give them credit for and we are less intelligent than we realize. Maybe one day we humans as a whole will overcome our base natures and seek something higher, or better yet we could start with and settle at the truth as a baseline instead of the lies we tell ourselves and believe.

Lag and Two go against the grain and history has proven that is a difficult path, but ultimately can bring enlightenment. We are still in the warring stages of human development, Lag and Two are not in the majority and the herd moves against them regardless of reason. Instead or recognizing truth by inductive, abductive, inductive, and deductive reasoning it seems everyone is happy to use fallacious reasoning. The popular golf culture is currently at war with Lag and Two and have been until bored or have made a large enough amount of money for them not to be a threat anymore. Lag and Two argue against what most people say is the main reason for them disliking golf, the expense. Lag and Two want you to buy cheap old equipment, let the rough grow, shorten courses, lower course fees, educate yourself and become empowered to improve your own game, do the lessons with them and get good, check twice a year like the greatest golf ever use to and spend $200 bucks a year on lessons instead of $200 an hour once a month, $1,000 a year on equipment, $3,000 -$1,000,000 a year on fees depending on course. The ones complaining about the cost of golf are the same ones at war with the teaching and truth of Lag and Two. Like a man complaining that he is hungry and food cost is high, but won't eat food give to him because it doen't match his preconceived notions of what that food should be and how it should taste. Same result both way from stupidity, the guy is broke and hungry, the golfer is broker and not any better. I believe history will show them to be correct in the same way that I believe history will show Tesla to be correct and even beyond Einstein in his genius and understanding of physics. Einstein is the hero today and Tesla is laughed at as a quack by the masses and the "common sense" each of them has about his history. Each of them has many things to thank Tesla for, and although the information is easily available it is not openly publicized making the limited knowledge most have about him a fraction of truth with a majority of lies and since no one these days thinks for themselves it is accepted as truth instead of finding out what is actual truth. History will most likely prove Tesla right, and a genius beyond any current understanding of the potential that word implies when the unified theory of physics is correctly worked out. If you don't think that then I know where you are in the masses, guess the government and Einstein are idiots for working and collaborating with him. Unfortunately he was far ahead of the humans he shared this planet with, he wanted free energy and to give everything to the people, doesn't match the stage of human development he was born in and most people did not understand him. Most greats are appreciated 100s of years after death when people realize what was going on. Maybe Lag and Two will get there, if not humans will eventually figure it out slowly.

History repeats again endlessly it seems in this hard lesson for humanity, go to war and realize that was the incorrect way to handle things and not only that, the masses realize that the side or person supported in that war was incorrect and was an enemy of humanity and a dictator after the fact. Of course predictably say to themselves we will learn from this and not do that again, 50 - 100 years later even with written work and historical facts humanity forgets the lesson that was learned by ancestors hard fought battles and make the same mistakes again because this war is right that one in the past wasn't. True peace and war are mutually exclusive by definition.

Contemplate what is written, debate if you want but if honest with yourselves none of the points above can be argued with any validity. If an argument arises it will be with an incorrect baseline, and easily dismissed. By that I mean do not start with an incorrect point of origin, like having perfectly correct and provable numbers that support your position but those numbers are based on the earth being square and not round. Then no matter how correct the numbers are, it is truth in fantasy and not truth in reality, provable and correct for an incorrect baseline. People are not better at golf than in the past, only the incorrect thinking that players are better based on incorrect information, a faulty baseline, and ultimately easily disproved
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Re: Classic Rounds with Classic Gear on Classic Tracks

Postby 20 Mule Team » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:39 am

Interesting post, Flatlies, I enjoyed reading it.

I believe that most people are good, sincere, compassionate, well-meaning. The problem is that those that climb to positions of leadership -- in politics and business, sometimes even religion -- tend to be sociopaths, powermad, money-loving, or both. Most of us have no interest in leading armies, governments, or huge corporations. We're content to tend our gardens and raise our families. Only the most aggressive, unscrupulous, and callous climb to the top of humanity.

I've had the following quote stuck in my head for several weeks now; its from Hermann Goring, the Nazi Gestapo leader. When asked at the Nuremburg trials how the Nazi's had gotten the German people to go along with their war and crimes against humanity, he answered:

Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.

Moral imperative. Without it the people do not support the cause. This was the great lesson of Vietnam to the Military Industrial Complex: if they want perpetual war they must have the consent of the people. The attacks in the Gulf of Tonkin, at least one of which are generally accepted now to have been staged/faked by our own Govt for this purpose, did not work. They needed another Pearl Harbor. They finally found it -- some say created it -- on 9/11. And since then we have had 15+ years of perpetual war in a part of the world where 99.9% of Americans have no dog in the fight - yet we consent to sending our money and offspring to fight it.

Corporate marketing works much the same way: they convince you to give them what they want (your money) by telling you that they only care about what you want (improving your life). Only later does one realize they've been duped. And by that time, another marketer has come along to fill the void and repeat the process.

...Now, I'm not sure what this has to do with Classic Rounds with Classic Gears on Classic Tracks but I feel better, anyway :)
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Re: Classic Rounds with Classic Gear on Classic Tracks

Postby Range Rat » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:59 pm

Was thinking the other day that Presidents should be forced to play knife edge blades and persimmons. No cavity back bullshit..... :lol:
You're ahead of where you were, and behind where you're going.
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Re: Classic Rounds with Classic Gear on Classic Tracks

Postby k2baloo » Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:31 pm

Played my first 18 of the year today. Was pretty Rusty and came in with an 80. I blame the winter greens. :D

But I hit 12 fairways and I can't honestly remember the last time I did that. The driver, 2 Wood and 2 iron shared driving duties. Distance control and putting wasn't there. Missed long and short on a number of iron shots and putted poorly.

Played with 3 dentists that didn't understand why I was out there with persimmons... The message doesn't resonate with many people.
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Re: Classic Rounds with Classic Gear on Classic Tracks

Postby LesMurray » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:18 am

Last Friday got in a round with my old gear and an old ball '57 Wilson Staff irons, '53 Tommy Armor 653 persimmons, and what looks like a '70s PGA balata ball. Hit it pretty decent for my level with 7 pars and 5 bogeys (plus a few others). I really didn't notice much distance difference between the old balata and the new ProV1. I did think the old ball felt better off the face and reacted better. With the woods there was more curve on the ball when I hit fades or slices.

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Re: Classic Rounds with Classic Gear on Classic Tracks

Postby k2baloo » Fri May 26, 2017 6:46 pm

Got out in the evening and played 18 holes in under 3 hours. The whole evening was such a battle. Ended up shooting 78. Considering I hadn't hit a ball in 2 weeks, I'll take it. Putted poorly, missing multiple putts inside 5 feet.

Biggest mistake of the round was hitting a pw over the green from100 yards into a Hazard that led to a double bogey. Doing something that stupid eats at me a bit.
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Re: Classic Rounds with Classic Gear on Classic Tracks

Postby Ded2Journey » Tue May 30, 2017 4:34 am

k2baloo wrote:Got out in the evening and played 18 holes in under 3 hours. The whole evening was such a battle. Ended up shooting 78. Considering I hadn't hit a ball in 2 weeks, I'll take it. Putted poorly, missing multiple putts inside 5 feet.

Biggest mistake of the round was hitting a pw over the green from100 yards into a Hazard that led to a double bogey. Doing something that stupid eats at me a bit.


The pain of mis-clubbing...Someone told me that used to eat Hogan up too. He would probably tell you to get back to Practicing...lol, but I also heard he was a hard Ass.

Solid Round K2... especially with vintage gear.
"People have always been telling me what I can't do. I guess I have wanted to show them. That's been one of my driving forces all my life." -Ben Hogan
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