BP, thanks for the thoughts... I have a lot of questions and thoughts about this stuff, maybe I'll get to them at some point. I appreciate the input... BOM
mandrin wrote:
BomGolf222 wrote:The building up of momentum during transition and down into that slot is very important but would be a lot different to actual active forward acceleration. If you start in the slot there's no momentum built up.
BomGolf,
I need a bit more explanation.. don't quite get it.
Mandrin, Is this a genuine question or is it a trick COAM question? My point seems pretty simple for a smart guy like you to have grasped. Let me know if you want a real answer or one that satisfies scientific theory... Cheers
ok lag i want a video of you demonstrating the difference of hitting and swinging. you can post it in the mod 1 student forum. i have included here a video of a TGM explanation of hitting vs. swinging. It seems to me that when a TGM instructor explains the difference between hitting and swinging, both moves involve passive hands. the hitting motion in tgm is passive hands lunging (pushing) at the ball. i know you differ with this instructors explanation, but i need to see you demonstrating your explanation, showing us how the active motors fire at the ball in hitting vs. passive hands in swinging.
you said to me that there's a huge difference between hitting and swinging. the only difference i see so far is that in a hitter's motion the hands are active and in a swinger's motion the hands are passive.
when i view ben hogan's swing it seems like he uses a swinger's motion with very active hands in the swinging area. where am i missing it?
i kill the ball with a swinger's motion with active hands in the hitting area. is this hitting? i'm having trouble trying to understand the difference between hitting and swinging from an ABS insider perspective.
This is a quote from Lag on Gotham Golf Blog on Dec 19th, 2009
Kelly's observation that the right arm (a straightening of the right elbow) either actively (hitting) or passively being pulled straight (swinging) is consistent with Lynn Blake's observation that only the player really knows if they are hitting or swinging. Visually there is little if any detectable differences, even with slow motion footage.
However, Kelley didn't include in his work an option or component variation for the right elbow not straightening through impact.. essentially remaining as frozen as possible. This is why TGM can never get to Hogan, because what Hogan did is not properly described, included, nor categorized in his study. So you have a splitting of the TGM "Red Sea" both hitters and swingers wanting to include Hogan on their side of the fence when in fact he was neither.
Hogan instead, fought against the outward expansion of CF, and there are plenty of stills of Hogan post impact where you can see the veins popping out of his arms proving beyond any doubt that the muscle were contracted not relaxed and limp with a dead hand flop that I'm sure is still being taught today in the various TGM camps.
The arms flying off the body stuff, the over straightening of the right arm, and excessive clubface rotation post impact will insure that the next Hogan will not come from the TGM protocol.
BomGolf222 wrote:BP, thanks for the thoughts... I have a lot of questions and thoughts about this stuff, maybe I'll get to them at some point. I appreciate the input... BOM
mandrin wrote:
BomGolf222 wrote:The building up of momentum during transition and down into that slot is very important but would be a lot different to actual active forward acceleration. If you start in the slot there's no momentum built up.
BomGolf,
I need a bit more explanation.. don't quite get it.
Mandrin, Is this a genuine question or is it a trick COAM question? My point seems pretty simple for a smart guy like you to have grasped. Let me know if you want a real answer or one that satisfies scientific theory... Cheers
BomGolf, No tricks. Probably just my mistake but I simply try to understand your point. Reading it several times I conclude that you are making a distinction between going down and going forward with regard to momentum being generated. Is that correct?
My distinction was really more to do with the difference between the build up of speed in the club and/or your body/arms from the top to P3 prior to the real activation of pivot power, vs. if you just started from the slot. I don't know if it's stored/ built up/contained/accumulated or what it is, or even where it is if it is, but it seems like common sense that there's a significant advantage to be gained in that journey down into the slot. The downswing becomes rotational and gets a lot of power because of that, but it doesn't start down rotationally. I wasn't saying that the direction of the journey down was necessarily having an impact, though I think it does due to the natural journey of something circular, just that that journey to the slot is relevant to the speed you can create. You're point about why not start from P3 was what I was responding to- maybe I should've made that clear. I thought since you've spent so much time discounting angular momentum that you may have wanted to go down that road again- I'm not the man for that fight! No hard feelings.... If you hold your arms out to your sides at shoulder height and let them fall would they be going faster when they hit your sides or when they start moving? If you used effort to fire them down would they be traveling faster when they left shoulder height or when they hit your sides? What if you activated effort half way down? Would you rather be hit by a coin that fell from 2 feet above your head or by one that falls from a 20 story building? A 747 needs a long runway to build up enough speed in order to take off. A fighter jet can take off from the deck of a ship but does use an accelerator sling to do it even though it has jets that make it eventually break the sound barrier(but it obviously can't do that from standing) Do you think one, each, or any of these things would have an impact on the difference in how fast the club can travel if you started it from P3 or if you started it from the top of your backswing? These are the kinds of ideas that I would think about when trying to see into these points...
Smoothy, It's not the first time Gerry Hogan was referenced in regard to something I've said. It's kind of funny because we didn't exactly see eye to eye when he was here. Thanks for the quote, it's very interesting. I think thumb position is something that doesn't get much air time but there are some funky looking places for it to be that make a lot of physical sense but aren't very 'golfy'... Cheers
BomGolf222 wrote:My distinction was really more to do with the difference between the build up of speed in the club and/or your body/arms from the top to P3 prior to the real activation of pivot power, vs. if you just started from the slot. I don't know if it's stored/ built up/contained/accumulated or what it is, or even where it is if it is, but it seems like common sense that there's a significant advantage to be gained in that journey down into the slot. The downswing becomes rotational and gets a lot of power because of that, but it doesn't start down rotationally. I wasn't saying that the direction of the journey down was necessarily having an impact, though I think it does due to the natural journey of something circular, just that that journey to the slot is relevant to the speed you can create. You're point about why not start from P3 was what I was responding to- maybe I should've made that clear. I thought since you've spent so much time discounting angular momentum that you may have wanted to go down that road again- I'm not the man for that fight! No hard feelings.... If you hold your arms out to your sides at shoulder height and let them fall would they be going faster when they hit your sides or when they start moving? If you used effort to fire them down would they be traveling faster when they left shoulder height or when they hit your sides? What if you activated effort half way down? Would you rather be hit by a coin that fell from 2 feet above your head or by one that falls from a 20 story building? A 747 needs a long runway to build up enough speed in order to take off. A fighter jet can take off from the deck of a ship but does use an accelerator sling to do it even though it has jets that make it eventually break the sound barrier(but it obviously can't do that from standing) Do you think one, each, or any of these things would have an impact on the difference in how fast the club can travel if you started it from P3 or if you started it from the top of your backswing? These are the kinds of ideas that I would think about when trying to see into these points...
BomGolf,
Some interesting train of thoughts and intriguing questions....
It indeed makes sense that any momentum generated during the first part of the downswing is not lost but carries over into the rest of the swing. I like to come back on this.
The matter of arm movement also intrigues me. Do arms fall (rotate) faster only using gravity, hence not using any helping action by muscles in arms and shoulders ? Jim Flick touched on this matter in his book 'ON GOLF'.'
Mandrin, Due to muscle connection and pure instinct to support something you're holding, I really don't think anything in the golf swing happens purely because of gravity, as a general rule. Sergio is really the only guy I've physically seen that has a free drop down, and that's still observational. I suppose it all is, but he actually looks like he pulls his downswing out of a free fall half way down. Feelings and intentions are another matter. I have a question regarding storing energy that may be completely basic but I was wondering if you could answer it if you get the time.... In talking about the falling coin, or anything falling really, something came to mind that I've wondered about from time to time. So taking into account wind resistance and air flow etc., an object that's falling is increasing in speed as it falls. The increase is relatively constant or completely constant? Again, negating air flow etc. And by constant I mean for example there would be some consistent sequential relevance between the speed increase in say the second quarter of it's journey and the third quarter of it's journey. Obviously it would be going faster at the end of it's third quarter, but that it's speed would be measurable based on it's acceleration through the first two quarters. Anyway, to get to the point. Where is the energy stored? Or is it? The object itself hasn't changed form or anything, yet it's moving at in increased rate of speed. The energy of the object appears to be greater in terms of it's potential for impact and also it's rate of travel, but it's all relative to it's surroundings. It hasn't changed itself, I don't think. So I guess my question is, is the object itself storing the energy? I'm trying to get my head around where it's energy is, but I can't... Maybe you have some thoughts on this... Cheers...
It's certainly the feeling of gravity.. meaning the transition is not a hand throw.. but a passive dropping into the slot.. So for that to really work correctly the transition must be initiated by something other than the hands..
Both Hogan and Snead talked about it being the lower part of the body.
Hogan's action is a thing of beauty but you had better have your ducks lined up in a big way if you are going to do it like he did or it will be a major train wreck.
I like Snead's sit and squat action for most golfers. Hogan's move is extremely advanced stuff if you are going to actually do it that way.
I have had some major lightbulbs over hitting in the ABS way in the last few days. The duck analogy is very true. When performed correctly true ABS hitting requires STRENGTH to hold onto that club through the hitting area and tear it out of orbit.
I am desperate to go on in modules but I am now realising how they fit togther starting with the end in mind and I need strength and speed to perform hitting correctly.
I cannot see Hogan as anything other than a REALLY stong and fast handed hitter in an ABS sense, but he did load the club early and somehow was strong enough to hang onto the shaft flex
