Insight - Keeping hands out in front (?)

Re: Insight - Keeping hands out in front (?)

Postby lagpressure » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:46 pm

I do out of respect for any golfer want to impress that I am not here to rip players, other teachers or their methods.
It's just for conversation here, and like Hanisch said, to help us all learn. I don't dislike all modern golf swings. I do like
the swing of the current Masters' champion very much. Some of the LPGA swings I have seen look very good.

But like I have stressed here many times, a lot of the problems are with the lightweight clubs they are using and also of the course set ups that have little regard for accuracy off the tee. Also the length of the ball - driver vs the course, and that proportion is just way off the charts.
When all par 4's today are wedge shots, and par 5's are actually par 4's. Par is not 72 respectfully. It's more like 68 or 69. So when I see a final
score of 20 under, that means 4 to 8 under to me. If they are hitting mid or even hybrids into 5 pars for second shots, they are in fact par 4's.

The tour and media get excited by low numbers etc, but it's no longer historically relevant to anyone with just a hint of common sense.
The Masters, US Open etc, even course records ....all need to be comparatively viewed based upon some timeline of pre and post plastic ball era.
It did happen somewhat gradually, so tough to nail it down, but surely between 1997 and 2002 I would think.
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Re: Insight - Keeping hands out in front (?)

Postby lagpressure » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:15 pm

The camera is way out of DTL perspective here. Just look where the fairway is.
This is why his arm appears to be so far from his body because this camera angle is way to far to the left of DTL.

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Re: Insight - Keeping hands out in front (?)

Postby nfbandon » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:36 pm

John we will just agree to disagree. If you compare the delivery pics I posted Johnny and Roberto have the same amount of shoulder and hip turn and knee flex and shaft angle. At impact Roberto's hips may be a bit more open and Johnny may be a bit more open in the shoulders. A pull? Yeah, so did Snead, Palmer and Knudson, among others. Many great strikers had an inside arm path and a downswing path outside of that (although they still hit from the inside) and they may have pulled it a bit relative to their foot line. That is what my eyes see.

As far as the flip that doesn't happen until the hands get to the left hip, which is what you will see in many great strikers.
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Re: Insight - Keeping hands out in front (?)

Postby k2baloo » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:15 pm

I'm not a huge fan of Johnny's swing but I wish him the best. To me it just looks too mechanical and lacking natural rhythm and timing. Looks like he might mess up a knee or something swinging like that. I also prefer to see more of a lateral move. This is completely subjective, obviously. But it looks a bit odd to my eyes. I do like some of the things he does, especially in the DTL view.

John - I think you need to be a bit more consistent with some of your arguments though. Saying Johnny is OTT and pulls it? You have mentioned how it's overemphasized by teachers and really not important. Some people play better with an open stance, some with a closed stance. Snead is a great example of someone who pulled practically every shot.
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Re: Insight - Keeping hands out in front (?)

Postby k2baloo » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:23 pm

BTW, I think some of us are talking about different things. At least I don't seem to be on the same page as everyone else, because it my book, this pic shows 'hands out in front.' Not as much so as De Vicenzo or some other players, but the same general idea.

Grady - would the below meet the idea of what you're presenting, or are the hands too low and/or close to the body?

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Re: Insight - Keeping hands out in front (?)

Postby lagpressure » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:18 pm

k2baloo wrote:I'm not a huge fan of Johnny's swing but I wish him the best. To me it just looks too mechanical and lacking natural rhythm and timing. Looks like he might mess up a knee or something swinging like that. I also prefer to see more of a lateral move. This is completely subjective, obviously. But it looks a bit odd to my eyes. I do like some of the things he does, especially in the DTL view.

John - I think you need to be a bit more consistent with some of your arguments though. Saying Johnny is OTT and pulls it? You have mentioned how it's overemphasized by teachers and really not important. Some people play better with an open stance, some with a closed stance. Snead is a great example of someone who pulled practically every shot.


I would not teach someone to aim right and pull it. He looks like he is pulling it a lot... not just slightly. I don't know who Jonny is, just looks like a modern swing that is hugely over accelerating and it shows post impact. Just awful in my opinion. I don't care if he has won mini tour events where they drive it 350 and wedge into every hole. It's not a masterful move by any traditional sense. I'm sure some people like it, I don't. I don't like the mechanics of it one bit.

I have not seen one example of either the teacher or a student of his who actually slots the club. I'm talking about flattening the shaft below plane and keeping the shaft below the shoulder line into the downswing.

The move that some have mentioned here suggesting the hands move outward toward the line, is a reasonable observation. But I would not agree that it has anything to do with an independent arm move pushing out, or is the result of an inside takeaway that loops over. It's a relationship between slotting it first through active forearm rotation and the proper use of ground pressures... that can be extremely counter intuitive. It's basically a VERY sophisticated move (The God Move) and should not be taken lightly or for granted.

I took a couple swing this evening and captured a bit of what has been described as "that look". But I can assure you it has nothing to do with pushing the arms forward toward the line from the shoulder sockets. Nothing... zero.

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I took both a rear and front view... (not the same swing, but within a minute of each other)

Mike Maves had it right with his assessment of ground pressures. Notice the right foot from the caddy view and how it slips and opens clockwise because I am not wearing proper golf shoes. Wasn't that his "Secret in the Dirt"? He based his whole book and website on that. I agree.

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This of course opens up that entire conversation about the dumbing down of the game and how something as simple as banning steel spikes has had a very negative effect on the evolution of the golf swing. I don't mind seeing this hitting into a net for demonstrating golf swing dynamics, teaching etc, but I would NOT want that happening to me in a tournament championship.

I made a recent change in my own golf swing that really had nothing to do with any of this stuff directly, but it's showing some fairly radical changes to the appearance. Has absolutely nothing to do with Knudson, Hogan etc... just something I came across and am happy with the ball flight recently.

Steve saw me hit a few 1 irons off the deck yesterday, so I think he could attest as well. Very piercing ball flight with a slightly different trajectory than I am used to. It's kinda exciting really. Haven't felt anything significantly noteworthy in a few years actually.
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Re: Insight - Keeping hands out in front (?)

Postby nfbandon » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:15 am

K2baloo

In that pic of John you are pretty late in the DS so the hands would be coming back in close, but the direction of the swings is different. ABS, as I understand it, promotes a very inside to out path which you bend back left with PIA via pivot and left side crunch. This creates the pressure in the hands John talks about. The alternative swing that you see in Johnny and many great ballstrikers is an inside hand path without forearm roll followed by a hand path outside of that back with a shaft kicking back behind the hands in transition. Because of this the hand path is aiming to the short stop instead of right field. You are already around the corner. The body will be more rotated at impact and you won't be fighting to bend the path. The arms are just along for the ride. Lateral motion is discouraged in this technique because it depends on a more centered rotation. ABS encourages more lateral movement. I used to come off the ball several inches but less so with this method, which has made my ballstriking more accurate. It is not something I think about but it is a byproduct of this method that I think has helped me. Lots of great players have moved off the ball. Curtis Strange comes to mind, and John has considerable movement in that swing above.

I applaud those that can master the slotting protocol in ABS. I could not, and simply wanted to present a different way to swing that have helped me and which can be seen in some of the great ballstrikers.
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Re: Insight - Keeping hands out in front (?)

Postby lagpressure » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:39 am

For the record here and to be fair and honest to other students, Grady did not work through the ABS Modules as intended. Students do thousands of repetitions outside of ballstriking with very strict tolerances and my watchful eye on their specific drilling technique. With Grady it was more watching him hit range balls. I think it is important to make this distinction.

Because Grady is a very good player and started with a very good golf swing, we skipped around a bit on the Module work, and worked through some of the technical stuff in a more traditional way, hitting balls on the range etc, where he was thinking about this stuff more from a range perspective, hitting balls and so on, rather than really hammering this stuff out in the trenches with months of very intense module specific focus, which is what everyone else here (students) have been doing.

This was early on in the ABS program, and in hindsight, I don't think it benefited either of us. I take full responsibility for this, but I won't make this mistake again. Part of my learning process also. Grady, I'm sure worked hard on stuff, but it was more about hitting balls and trying to figure it out on the driving range.

It's been nearly 10 years now since the inception of ABS, and in hindsight, the best results have always come from the students who are most dedicated to the Module work as laid out, both from a drilling and technical perspective, AND in the very specific order in which the Modules are presented.
There has been room for refinement within the Module work with additional supplementary videos and or diagrams that are often added into the private student forum area, and that is often a direct result from the very indepth student forum discussions which offer me insight into how the concepts are communicating and being integrated into the students. It's also been great for the students to be able to interact with one another sharing feelings insights, lightbulbs, etc.

Now if someone comes to me with an injury or a specific physical limitation, then we would have to work around it, or they might be better off with a different approach to swinging a golf club. I've sent a few students over to Greg Lavern to learn Moe's method as I think he is better suited to teach Moe's details than I am. If someone just wants pure velocity or clubhead speed with no concern for accuracy, this is probably not the place to be. People have different reasons and motivations for playing golf.

I had a student come to me who really had zero interest in technique and just wanted a deeper more spiritual connection to the walking in the park aspect golf can offer. He read "Golf in the KIngdom" and I sent him over to Chris who integrates a lot of Zen philosophy into the golfing experience.
I agree with that approach also on many levels, but Chris is really deeply into a lot of those very Eastern mystical and philosophical ideologies. My opinion is more along the lines that much of that stuff would open up later through masterful technique, and the road to mastery is paved with a lot of very intense disciplinary mechanical refinements. The walk feels more connected down the middle than in the trees.
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Re: Insight - Keeping hands out in front (?)

Postby lagpressure » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:09 am

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nfbandon wrote:K2baloo

Lateral motion is discouraged in this technique because it depends on a more centered rotation. ABS encourages more lateral movement. So my solution is to be less lateral, more rotational. Snead would be a good example. He had very little lateral movement. His knees went external in his squat. This allowed him to rotate more in that Boomer barrell.


Snead was a strong promoter of lateral movement.
He transitioned with a squat, then a push off the right foot to transfer weight. It's a textbook move.

Hogan, Knudson had quicker tempo swings that used a different method that pushed off much earlier into a deeper left leg flexation.

However, the idea that one should eliminate lateral motion is not consistent with Hogan, Trevino, Moe, Knudson, Snead, Nicklaus, Watson, Nelson, Player, Miller, Faldo, Seve, Strange, Watkins, Palmer, Casper, Lema, Di Vicenzo, Venturi,...... my fingers are tired.
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Re: Insight - Keeping hands out in front (?)

Postby nfbandon » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:03 am



The lateral movement I am seeking to limit is in transition. Snead did the same. Once you are at p3 with the left hip around the corner your will see Johnny move the right side laterally into extension. Johnny would have move lateral movement than Sam here, but it comes later. Elk had an interested video on his "secret golf" website about crushing the can with the left foot. He said he doesn't want that to happen until after impact. He said Burke taught him that a lot of the old guys would put their cig wrapper under their left heel and hover it above the ground until the ball was struck.

And by the way I beat that bag until my hands bleed many, many times. I put in the time, and I got value out of ABS. I agree we shouldn't have gone to superslotting after mod 4.
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