The Truths and Errors about Force and the Golf Swing

The Truths and Errors about Force and the Golf Swing

Postby Frozen Divots » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:26 pm

I am going to try to define the truths and show the errors regarding force and the golf swing. The errors do not necessarily mean 'lies', just things that were gotten wrong and passed along. Not that the greats didn't keep secrets, lie directly or by omission...but that's a different thread.

I will also try to do short videos with demonstrations of what I am trying to define. This stuff can get more mixed up than a teenagers mind after watching 'A Clockwork Orange'.
I am going to start with Angular Momentum and the Conservation of Angular Momentum. Sounds boring but I will try to make it somewhat interesting.

Angular Momentum is something in motion around a point. This 'something' acquires Angular Momentum. Think of a club head rotating around your wrist.

Now intuitively a golfer will think 'I want this to go faster'. So they do whatever they think they need to do to get that clubhead to race around the point as fast as they can.

But, make the club head race around what point? The hand? Or the body? What is the said 'point' in a golf swing? Is it the lead shoulder? The hips? Hmm...back to that in a bit.

Whatever it really is, most think they need to race around that point as fast as they can. So they make a major error and accelerate the club head immediately. After all, that is Angular Momentum, correct? Sure. And golf club manufacturers make a killing off of equipment designed to help that effort.

If Angular Momentum is created right away in the clubhead, you better know your 'point'. Are you rotating true? Are you swaying? Moving laterally? Jumping upward during any of that? How much slack in the system? Well, in short, you are in trouble. There is a good chance the 'Point' is all over the map and most likely changing on you, maybe many times in your one little swing.
So are you creating true Angular Momentum? Nope. That just explained 80% of golfers. Trying to do something that they shouldn't even be doing to begin with.

If you lose the relationship to the point, you don't have Angular Momentum. You have a fake Angular Momentum.

You have entangled forces...99% of the worl'd golf swings.

So good news. Don't try to create Angular Momentum immediately...there is a better way.

So here comes another Error in the history of golf. Someone once said, let's hold that club head off...let's 'Conserve Angular Momentum!'

If I create and angle and resist that club head from racing around like a wild horse, I am in control. Joe Dante, etc, then added COAM to golf's lexicon. Now a whole generation of golfers had a new way to swing the club. They hold, resist, trap the club, use soft hands, you name it...just don't let that club head go. Then at the right time, whoosh, there it will go.

Oops. That is not Conservation of Angular Momentum. That club head still has Angular Momentum. It is still rotating around a fixed point. But what is that fixed point? Same problem here...
But if it is held and going slower, isn't that 'Conservation'? Nope. Conservation means something else here. It is the physical system change. (More later when we get to the truth about forces).

But wait a minute. I have this club head contained. It's clearly not moving nearly as fast or as far as the way I used to do it. I am conserving it.

No, you are not. You are merely moving the club head slower. That is not what COAM means.

HOLDING AN ANGLE IS NOT CONSERVATION OF ANGULAR MOMENTUM. NEITHER IS DELAYING IT TO SAVE FOR LATER.

It is a slower Angular Momentum than requires something else later on to amplify it. More on that later...


So, where are we then? We know a skater pulls her arms in for Conservation of Angular Momentum and she speeds up. That must be what we want! COAM demands a decrease in in separation of the two masses, obviously not what a hold of an angle is...thankfully we eliminated that idea. If I decrease that distance, then angular velocity increases and we can wail a golf ball.
So what the hell do I do...and do I even know what my 'point' is yet? What am I decreasing to? And what I am decreasing? Do I pull my arms in? Isn't the club head what I am trying to speed up? So I must pull the club head in. I must decrease THAT to whatever POINT I haven't figured out yet.

Problem. Let's pretend at this moment we know those two answers (we will get there in time). How the hell do we get a club head to rotate directly across from the 'point' the whole way and get it nearer to that point. And for this COAM to work the best way possible, it would have to be nearest at impact. Easy for a skater, not for a golfer with a club.

But COAM needs full rotation to gain and acquire...do we spin around and around in circles and then hit the ball? Can we get COAM on a quarter or half turn? Are we on skates and going in circles? Can a skater who clearly displays COAM, hold a club and hit a golf ball on the ice at the angle required for a good shot? Hell no. Why Not? Because the club in rotation has it's OWN IDEAS. The club head does not want to go into a point on a body. It has to get to the ground. Hello!!!! Is your fixed point for a true COAM on the ground? I hope not...think about that...

Is there even COAM In a golf swing? Yes, but it's not what you think. And if you read another thread on this site that had some info saying it wasn't in a swing...well that thread had crossed over 'laws and rules' from COAM in various systems..Thermodynamics, Electrodynamics and more. Somebody blurred the lines and applied it to a golf swing incorrectly. Doubt they even knew it (damn internet scientists!) Oh well, let's move on. COAM is real and in a golf swing, but it is NOT what you see in a rotating skater.

So then what is left. I must have to simply hold this system in rotation. Fight it...don't let it get away. Well, you can do that. But that isn't Conservation of Angular Momentum, either.

That's Angular Momentum and a smaller radius. Smaller wheel. You can play great golf with a smaller wheel.

So where are we? We know not to use L (Angular Momentum) right away. We also know that COAM is not a held angle. We also know that COAM in a skater is not applicable to a golf swing. We have identified a couple of truths and a couple or errors.

Immediate L...OUT
COAM as a hold or delayed L....OUT (sorry Joe Dante).
COAM as drawing the clubhead inward to some point on a half turn, with short arms to hit a ball on the correct angle downward...OUT (not COAM)

In other words, L and COAM are misunderstood, misused and ill-defined. But we need both.

Where do we go next? We go to the truth about force in a golf swing. We define the two separate rotations and what they are. We define how they merge and give the appearance of one motion. Because they are separate and merge, the above impossibilities can happen. They CANNOT Happen in one 'system'. We are not a rotating planet (the body) with a moon (the club). That is one system.

The club torque and pivot are two separate things that on their own are able to do what the above cannot. They have their own defined 'points' and their own L and their own COAM. Together, they trick you.
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Re: The Truths and Errors about Force and the Golf Swing

Postby Mashie72 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:15 am

Frozen Divots wrote:
The club torque and pivot are two separate things that on their own are able to do what the above cannot. They have their own defined 'points' and their own L and their own COAM. Together, they trick you.


Good stuff and appreciate the thought that has gone into this
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Re: The Truths and Errors about Force and the Golf Swing

Postby nfbandon » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:11 pm

The body pivot essentially is on a horizontal plane, the arms and club a vertical plane. Somehow we need to merge the later into the former.
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Re: The Truths and Errors about Force and the Golf Swing

Postby adrwcav » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:44 am

FD- Excited to hear what else you can share, particularly on how pressuring changes with different clubs.
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Re: The Truths and Errors about Force and the Golf Swing

Postby Frozen Divots » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:21 pm

Here is a quick, Hollywood major studio quality video of what I mean by flipping the pole...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzJg-lSgXwk&t=12s
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Re: The Truths and Errors about Force and the Golf Swing

Postby Frozen Divots » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:08 am

One thing I forgot to add to the above video- don’t try to turn that move into the first move I showed. Typically people get it started correctly and then try to add to it, usually about halfway down. Just continue the initial pressure all the way.

Most people don’t commit all the way, even more so in baseball/softball swings. They may start right but they then pressure into L and wreck it. Leave the clubhead or bat head alone as long as possible, which is always.

Think about what Hogan said about your hands not being able to do anything, and then later saying he wished he had 3 right hands. The hands simply bear the weight and he wished he had more of that. The pressure is there because of the club head doing the work later, not the hands.

There is a ratio of L on each end of the club. The lower in clubhead at first means more in clubhead later. This defines the flip and how it happens.
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Re: The Truths and Errors about Force and the Golf Swing

Postby Range Rat » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:27 pm

Good stuff Divots! I have to be honest, if your video wasn't available to support the text I would have struggled big time trying to connect the words in the post, so thanks for that. It seems a little out of Martin Ayers camp in having the hands high, and a little out of Jackie Burke's camp too with not energizing the club head from the top.

What is really reminds me of is from baseball. Years ago the swing, when fastballs were today's change-ups, was called long-to-short, which would be "coming off the spot". Miguel Cabrera is a great example of today's hitter using short-to-long, which is just the opposite and is actually taking a short cut to the front of the plate, or low point in golf. With today's pitched speed batters going long-to-short are toast- they have to send the barrel away from the pitcher first then have it come back toward the pitcher- not enough time anymore to do that.

What your demonstration also reminds me of is Jacob's Ladder and how, in my rat mind, I see the toy's poles reversing in a complimentary manner, but everything is working top to bottom, inward, and in opposite pairs, and always moving down.
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Re: The Truths and Errors about Force and the Golf Swing

Postby Range Rat » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:43 pm

I was thinking you may be heading in this direction and was playing around with some Hogan things from the Coleman video.

Here's a GIF of Hogan doing his slow motion for demonstration of a transition piece which may, as you seemed to imply could look like a hold, and the same sequence at speed when he was hitting into the ocean. I got pretty close to getting the same pieces, at the same time. Quite a different appearance overall in how the club head appears dynamically....what's your thoughts on these two ratgifs.
output_AhJzfX.gif
output_AhJzfX.gif (142.97 KiB) Viewed 1427 times

output_JDr8LG.gif
output_JDr8LG.gif (119.09 KiB) Viewed 1426 times
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Re: The Truths and Errors about Force and the Golf Swing

Postby Frozen Divots » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:27 pm

Awesome gif work, RR...pretty much shows what I have been saying. And Hogan KNEW it...that slo-mo deal screwed up people for decades...
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Re: The Truths and Errors about Force and the Golf Swing

Postby nfbandon » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:45 am

Where is Hogan aiming there?
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