The Ben Hogan Golf Swing

Re: The Ben Hogan Golf Swing

Postby lagpressure » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:20 pm

Supinator2 wrote:
lagpressure wrote:I could look at any swing and just go down the list and check the boxes.
I have seen all these boxes checked by other players, but not sure I have seen all of them checked by any one person other than Hogan. So in that sense, I feel Hogan's swing was unique. But it should be mentioned that these are all dynamic things that have to do with ball flight and shot character... not just aesthetic reasons or void of direct function.


1. Flat, heavy, stiff clubs with no offset.
2. A quick tempo golf swing.
3. Backswing that moves with the correct path and intention of slotting the club with a FULL shoulder rotation. Left arm on shoulder line at top.
4. The transitional shallowing of the clubshaft. The GOD MOVE.
5. Weight transferring starts the downswing... delaying the opening and rotation of the torso, hips, shoulders.
6. Shaft works down from the slot to the 4:30 line, shaft intersecting the Chi center.
7. Shaft works through the strike from right to left hip pocket. Low, left and around.
8. Right arm near frozen through the strike from P3 to P4.
9. Hips, shoulders, torso accelerate through the strike... there is no stalling going on at all.
10. Shaft works high and extended into finish from low, left and around at P4, not out, flipped and rolled at P4. Left shoulder outracing the hands into finish PV5.


Lag,
There is a lot of info in that list, some of which I do not understand. Could you please explain what laying off or shallowing of the club shaft really is? Is it a plain shift, up or down? Is it a plane line shift, in or out? Is it something else entirely?

Also, if you don’t mind, what’s the 4:30 line and Chi center?

Thanks, love your web site.


Laying off the club can be viewed as a clockwise rotation of the forearms through transition. The shaft doesn't steepen, it flattens through transition. Steepening would make the shaft more vertical to the ground while flattening the shaft would move it more parallel to the ground through transition.

trans.gif
trans.gif (159.31 KiB) Viewed 1720 times


The layoff or "God Move" is one of the most mysterious and misunderstood actions of Hogan's and other excellent golf swings. I have never seen anyone do this that wasn't a very fine golfer. There are great reasons to pursue this, mainly it acts as an OTT inhibitor and fully loads the forearm rotation giving the green light for a vicious rotation into the strike.
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Re: The Ben Hogan Golf Swing

Postby lagpressure » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:32 pm

The 4:30 line is an imaginary line a golfer would visualize. If you drew a line from the ball to the target (target line) and you viewed the golf ball as a clock, you could think where 4:30 would be on the golf ball. It would be the middle of the lower right inside quadrant, if the golf ball were divided into four pizza slices. If you drew a line from that inside point on the golf ball away from the ball toward you, just missing your right foot. That would be the 4:30 line.

The Chi center is a Martial Arts term that describes the gravitational and energetic center of the body which is considered to be about 2 inches below one's naval. In Martial Arts, proper power and movement should initiate from this point in the center of the body. Hogan's shaft from a down the line "DTL" view dissects this Chi center perfectly which is one of the hallmarks of many Martial Art disciplines.

4_30.gif
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Re: The Ben Hogan Golf Swing

Postby Supinator2 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:08 am

lagpressure wrote:
Supinator2 wrote:
lagpressure wrote:I could look at any swing and just go down the list and check the boxes.
I have seen all these boxes checked by other players, but not sure I have seen all of them checked by any one person other than Hogan. So in that sense, I feel Hogan's swing was unique. But it should be mentioned that these are all dynamic things that have to do with ball flight and shot character... not just aesthetic reasons or void of direct function.


1. Flat, heavy, stiff clubs with no offset.
2. A quick tempo golf swing.
3. Backswing that moves with the correct path and intention of slotting the club with a FULL shoulder rotation. Left arm on shoulder line at top.
4. The transitional shallowing of the clubshaft. The GOD MOVE.
5. Weight transferring starts the downswing... delaying the opening and rotation of the torso, hips, shoulders.
6. Shaft works down from the slot to the 4:30 line, shaft intersecting the Chi center.
7. Shaft works through the strike from right to left hip pocket. Low, left and around.
8. Right arm near frozen through the strike from P3 to P4.
9. Hips, shoulders, torso accelerate through the strike... there is no stalling going on at all.
10. Shaft works high and extended into finish from low, left and around at P4, not out, flipped and rolled at P4. Left shoulder outracing the hands into finish PV5.


Lag,
There is a lot of info in that list, some of which I do not understand. Could you please explain what laying off or shallowing of the club shaft really is? Is it a plain shift, up or down? Is it a plane line shift, in or out? Is it something else entirely?

Also, if you don’t mind, what’s the 4:30 line and Chi center?

Thanks, love your web site.


Laying off the club can be viewed as a clockwise rotation of the forearms through transition. The shaft doesn't steepen, it flattens through transition. Steepening would make the shaft more vertical to the ground while flattening the shaft would move it more parallel to the ground through transition.

trans.gif


The layoff or "God Move" is one of the most mysterious and misunderstood actions of Hogan's and other excellent golf swings. I have never seen anyone do this that wasn't a very fine golfer. There are great reasons to pursue this, mainly it acts as an OTT inhibitor and fully loads the forearm rotation giving the green light for a vicious rotation into the strike.


Thank you Lag, you are the only one who has given me a clear concise answer to laying off. As it so happens, I have stumbled across that exact move at the top that you describe and it has resulted in a considerable improvement in my ball stricking. It feels like I am winding up the right arm (PA#1) like a coiled spring.
Many thanks
John
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Re: The Ben Hogan Golf Swing

Postby Supinator2 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:12 am

lagpressure wrote:The 4:30 line is an imaginary line a golfer would visualize. If you drew a line from the ball to the target (target line) and you viewed the golf ball as a clock, you could think where 4:30 would be on the golf ball. It would be the middle of the lower right inside quadrant, if the golf ball were divided into four pizza slices. If you drew a line from that inside point on the golf ball away from the ball toward you, just missing your right foot. That would be the 4:30 line.

The Chi center is a Martial Arts term that describes the gravitational and energetic center of the body which is considered to be about 2 inches below one's naval. In Martial Arts, proper power and movement should initiate from this point in the center of the body. Hogan's shaft from a down the line "DTL" view dissects this Chi center perfectly which is one of the hallmarks of many Martial Art disciplines.

4_30.gif


Thanks again Lag. I gather, from what you are saying that the target is at the 9 o’clock position?

All the best for the New Year.
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Re: The Ben Hogan Golf Swing

Postby lagpressure » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:27 am

4-30.jpg
4-30.jpg (40.75 KiB) Viewed 1669 times


So this is the visual equivalent to what we should see on the downswing. The hands and shaft work down the 4:30 line from the top of the swing.
As we get down to P3 (parallel before impact) the rotation of the torso - shoulders and forearms swivel the club into an impact alignment where the clubface hits the back of the ball or 3:00 on the ball.

What happens with most golfers is they send the hands and shaft down the 3:00 line and then the swiveling of the club hits the ball on the 1:30 line (OTT) or over the top. The hackers slice.

So by laying off the shaft through transition, Hogan was simply setting the shaft on the 4;30 line early so that no manipulation had to take place on the downswing. By transferring his weight from the correct part of the right foot to the correct part of the left foot, he created "the free ride down" he briefly talked about setting everything up for his vicious rotation into the strike.

By delaying the strike, he was able to aggressively "hit" rather than passively "swing".

This late hit is the only way to properly bring a pre stressed clubshaft into impact... or holding shaft flex into impact. If there is a secret, this is it, the accumulation of all the other swing activities pointing at this "goal".

Very few golfers will ever experience this level of ball striking.
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Re: The Ben Hogan Golf Swing

Postby Supinator2 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:59 pm

Just thinking about the mechanics and geometry of rotating the right forearm at transition, it seems to me that that action must surely tilt the swing plane, such that the plane line is along the 4:30 path. That is a big shift in swing plane. How else can one get the club to travel along that path?
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Re: The Ben Hogan Golf Swing

Postby lagpressure » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:57 pm

Supinator2 wrote:Just thinking about the mechanics and geometry of rotating the right forearm at transition, it seems to me that that action must surely tilt the swing plane, such that the plane line is along the 4:30 path. That is a big shift in swing plane. How else can one get the club to travel along that path?


There are other ways of getting the club on the 4:30 line, but only one way Hogan did it. It's unique, but I also think it is not out of reach for most golfers if they know what to do, or how to go about it.

One way a lot of players get on the 4:30 line is to cross over at the top and fly the right elbow out. There is a path right into the 4:30 line doing this.... Nicklaus is a prime example.

From a technical standpoint, Hogan's method is much more efficient and concise. It's simpler, and assures the shaft never comes down steep or OTT.
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Re: The Ben Hogan Golf Swing

Postby Gabriel_Knight » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:10 pm

What a great thread! Almost like an interview. I have really enjoyed reading it.
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Re: The Ben Hogan Golf Swing

Postby Gabriel_Knight » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:43 am

What Hogan did or did not mention in his books reminds me of the following story:

When I was in my twenties, I was crazy about aikido, training nearly daily for many years. I also read a bunch of books by Morihiro Saito, who was a long-time student of the aikido founder, Ueshiba Sensei. After Ueshiba Sensei’s death, Saito Sensei took over the founder’s dojo in Iwama, Japan and continued teaching aikido the same way Ueshiba Sensei did (whereas Ueshiba’s sons moved to Tokio, simplified aikido so that it could be taught more easily and started spreading it and popularising it across the world. It’s a different story though.).

Anyway, as a hard core student, one day I packed my bag and went to Iwama, where I lived for 6 months, training twice a day and living in the dojo. Saito Sensei passed away a few years before my vist but I had a chance to learn from his students, some of which were Saito Sensei’s “class mates” and junior students when the aikido founder, Ueshiba Sensei, was still alive.

On my first day I explained why I came, told the teacher in charge a little bit about my previous training and also showed him Saito Sensei’s book. I got his attention but he started smiling and eventually practically laughing his ass off together with a few fellow seniors whom he summoned and briefly spoke to while they were all looking at me. They didnt say what was so funny though and frankly I didnt speak much Japanese and they didnt speak much English. So I shrughed it off and later just trained with the class.

Of course, I comprehended later - during each class, the teacher would always show a technique, say a few words about it, and tell us to start practicing. He would then walk around the dojo, correct everyone and throw people around a bit to let us feel what a perfect execution feels like. He would often come to me, show me a detail important for a good technique execution and say “this little move is so important that Saito Sensei didnt mention it in his book”. He said that frequently!
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Re: The Ben Hogan Golf Swing

Postby Hogansearcher » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:00 pm

Gabriel_Knight wrote:What Hogan did or did not mention in his books reminds me of the following story:

“this little move is so important that Saito Sensei didnt mention it in his book”. He said that frequently!


Do you think that was because what he was saying was assumed to be so obvious?

Lag, I also wanted to ask you what you think about Hogan's grip and how that applies to his backswing in particular.
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