The Ben Hogan Golf Swing

Re: The Ben Hogan Golf Swing

Postby LesMurray » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:17 pm

John is giving away the shop here. This is top level analysis and instruction.

My challenge is trying to speed up the tempo yet not get early acceleration. Not easy and it takes a lot of strength to pull this off. I find that I don't get transition right and I tend to get out in front of the ball, resulting either in a pull or way to much arm in the swing. I do find that I need more of an inside take away to better encourage the shoulder rotation needed.
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Re: The Ben Hogan Golf Swing

Postby logo » Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:52 pm

..... I do find that I need more of an inside take away to better encourage the shoulder rotation needed.


Hi Les,

May you tell in which video has Lag shown us the inside take away in more details? As long as i remember, i don't have inside take away practice.

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Re: The Ben Hogan Golf Swing

Postby LesMurray » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:18 pm

logo wrote:May you tell in which video has Lag shown us the inside take away in more details? As long as i remember, i don't have inside take away practice.


In Mods 6 and 7 Lag goes into detail about the two backswing options. He showed me the outside takeaway (aka figure 8) when I visited him at the deck. That works well for helping get the feeling of slotting the club. When I do that backswing I tend to lift up near the top instead of turning more.
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Re: The Ben Hogan Golf Swing

Postby Hogansearcher » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:49 pm

LesMurray wrote:John is giving away the shop here. This is top level analysis and instruction.


I am certain we all appreciate what John has been explaining here about Mr Hogan. It does seem to get right down to the nitty gritty.
I haven't taken a private lesson from John yet, but plan on doing so soon. I have been looking for someone who can really teach me Mr Hogan's golf swing. I really don't think anyone has been able to nail it. I have worked with more instructors than I would like to admit. :oops: I feel like John understands what Mr Hogan was doing from the inside out. I suspect many teachers have correct pieces here and there, but not the complete picture.

Lag, have you thought about offering a course specifically targeted toward teaching Mr Hogan's golf swing? I know you don't believe in secrets, but to me a lot of it still feels like secrets because no one is addressing all these fundamentals in such a direct way.
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Re: The Ben Hogan Golf Swing

Postby LesMurray » Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:51 am

Hogansearcher wrote:Lag, have you thought about offering a course specifically targeted toward teaching Mr Hogan's golf swing? I know you don't believe in secrets, but to me a lot of it still feels like secrets because no one is addressing all these fundamentals in such a direct way.


The ABS course teaches the core fundamentals that are evident in all the classic swings of the great players, including Hogan. Whether or not your swing ends up looking like Hogan's will depend on many factors, including the feels you develop that get your club into the slot. Along with the standard modules, John offers options that will get you close to how Hogan swung, including an alternative transition move very much along the lines of Hogan and a super slotting module to help you slot the club deeper and more behind you.

Personal opinion here but I think if you want your swing to look similar to Hogan's you have to be prepared to work hard for it. As I mentioned earlier, to get the transition to work like his takes a lot of strength. John has the drills that can get you there. It will just take you a while to do so with many hours of work.
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Re: The Ben Hogan Golf Swing

Postby k2baloo » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:55 pm

I don't think anyone can teach Hogan's swing. If someone ever offered to teach it to me, I'd run and hold tight to my wallet...

The first thing you have to decide is why you play golf and what you want. Write down what you want and then figure out a way to get it. If what you want is to have a swing that looks like Hogan's, then you're probably on the right track here. But, if you want to be the best you can be, then learn all you can from Hogan AND all the other great ball-strikers, keep an open mind, and work hard. Looking like Hogan and being your best golfer are 2 different things and you have to decide which is more important to you.

Once you know what you want, you have to decide how to achieve it. There is a whole spectrum of methods here for each golfer to choose from:
- On one end, there is the 'black-box' approach. This is best for quick results and lowering scores fast; it's a plan of action. In this model, you have to admit you don't know the golf swing, sign up with an instructor you trust, and you do exactly what they tell you. It's that simple. You outsource the knowledge part to them, you do the work, and you get better. It's fast because you don't have to learn the material since the coach already has and, if they're experienced, they'll have a good plan laid out for your progression.
- On the other end, you rip open the swing and learn all there is to know. You DIY from the foundation up - the swing, the clubs, the mental, you learn it all from scratch. You don't have a coach because you know you'll try something new in 2 weeks anyways and you won't do their drills either. This takes a lot of time because when you start you'll know next to nothing, you'll make loads of mistakes, you'll experiment a lot, and you'll waste time and money on projects and ideas that don't improve your game. You'll regress often.

Of course, most people fall somewhere in between the 2 extremes, but it's important you know what kind of person you are. If you are a curious, engineer, DIY-type and very disagreeable, the first option will be a disaster. It will be a waste of your money and the instructor's time. This is why I've never taken lessons or signed up for the modules from Lag. Do I think Lag or another instructor could make me better? Absolutely. I like some of Lag's ideas, but I'm pretty stubborn and disagreeable and don't like other ideas here. I wouldn't commit to doing drills and work unless I understood everything %100. I also know I won't stick with it for 2, 4, 6 years, etc... I'd get bored and curious about 10 other things along the way and want to try those instead. This has been a huge limitation in my improvement.

I broke 80 within a year of picking up a golf club sophomore year and then have tried so many random things I can't even list... I was a worse golfer my senior year than junior, going from 2nd man to 4ish on my tiny HS team. That happened because I made insane swing changes after stumbling across a Youtube video of Ben Hogan against Snead in the Shell match. I became obsessed with his swing and thought I could have it. Turns out, I had absolutely no idea what I was doing and it was to my detriment. I don't regret it one bit - I'm as passionate about the game now as I ever was, but it's no way to improve quickly. The payoff, of course, is if you can put it together on your own and own every piece of the process from club to swing, you will be a monster. I think this is part of what made Hogan so deadly as a player. Once he put it all together, he understood every bit of his game (mental, clubs, swing, etc..). He knew what was important and what was garbage.

So, long story short, I'll tell you again, you have to decide what you want. If you want to improve quickly and become a real player, sign up for Lag's modules or get another reputable instructor, and work your tail off. It's that simple. This is how a lot of really good players are born. If you want to learn the 'Hogan' swing, that's fine too. But what I think you'll find in a few years is that you can't do the Hogan swing and what you really wanted to begin with was not actually the Hogan swing anyway... But, if you go this route because you're too dang curious not to, I wish you the best of luck :D

BTW, I do think there is value in learning and watching Hogan footage, hopefully that's not misinterpreted.
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Re: The Ben Hogan Golf Swing

Postby lagpressure » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:06 pm

A lot of things to digest here, and some interesting posts. I'll try not to get derailed here in discussing Hogan's swing and stay on topic.

My thoughts on this thread are to look at Hogan's swing as objectively as possible and not get caught into the mystery of it, "secrets", "I think he did this or that etc".

I watch the shaft, where it is, what it is doing, and the clubface, where it is and what it is doing.
Then I look at the body and see how it is moving the shaft and clubface accordingly.

But this is actually the easy part. Most anyone can view what is happening and identify it.

The key is to understand the underlaying form within the body that is motivating these actions the body is making. This looks at the intentions, but even further inside are the internal forces, both directive, resisting and opposing... that move the body in this way.... propelling the golf club around the body as has been discussed here.

You have to understand this stuff from the inside out. I have no doubt about this. My feeling is that the reason Hogan's swing has not been taught is because of the lack of proper instruction.... in a more complete sense. The book Five Lessons has some great things in it for sure, but I see too much conflicting or misunderstood descriptions. I do think it can be taught well enough to get into the ballpark, to get the basics of it. I think George Knudson did. In many ways Nick Faldo did. I am talking what I have described as the critical stuff.
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Re: The Ben Hogan Golf Swing

Postby lagpressure » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:21 pm

K2Baloo,

I agree, it's important to know what you want to do.
I have had a lot of students over the years who have been self proclaimed "Hoganites" and I get that. You have the greatest striker who wrote a couple cryptic books and talked about "secrets" like an episode of "Oak Island". It's intriguing and mysterious and to some extent great theater.

While I agree no one is going to swing exactly like Ben Hogan or anyone exactly for that matter, I do think one could learn all the critical elements. We have seen a few, to me at least, get close.. like Sergio Garcia and even Nick Faldo.

I'll continue with this and let's look at where we are at. The critical elements.. and we could compare these elements with others and see where they nail it and where they fall short.

As far as the ABS Modules here, they are designed to be much more inclusive of many fine strikers... and I should say "hitters". For instance, backswings would be just about anything as long as certain basic fundamentals are met..... but with Hogan I would not say any backswing would work for his golf swing because of the way he slotted the club and also the pace at which he swung the club. Hogan's swing approach would be much more restrictive that what ABS students have been working on in general.
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Re: The Ben Hogan Golf Swing

Postby lagpressure » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:59 pm

Hogansearcher wrote:

Lag, have you thought about offering a course specifically targeted toward teaching Mr Hogan's golf swing? I know you don't believe in secrets, but to me a lot of it still feels like secrets because no one is addressing all these fundamentals in such a direct way.


I think first off, there would need to be some kind of consensus as to "what is Hogan's swing" between a student and instructor.
I am quite sure mine would be more strict than most on the critical stuff. I say that because I have of course seen many proclaimed "Hogan" instructors who just flat out miss some or many of what I would view as critical elements. So therefore, not acceptable by my standards. But of course those elements would be "my standards". I might not view the massive amount of lag angles on the downswing as critical as some might view them. I would however view flattening of the shaft through transition as critical... which would lead to greater angles for example. I would certainly view Hogan's release working low left and around as critical. So there would need to be a distinction made between cosmetics, dynamics, vapor trails of other things. I would view lag angles as vapor trails of other critical things.

So to answer the question... I suppose yes, if the goals were clearly objectively spelled out... critical elements etc. Then there could be a developmental program put into place for those interested.
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Re: The Ben Hogan Golf Swing

Postby lagpressure » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:17 pm

So here, I would look at Hogan's swing as objectively as possible.

It would start with a flat, heavy set of clubs with very stiff shafts and no offset.
There is an entire deep well of discussion that could be undertaken just on this... so much that Ben Hogan started his own golf club company. He was more into equipment certainly than he was teaching the game or the swing.

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Hogan could have swung light clubs with whippy flexible shafts.... but he didn't.
So it is an objective fact that when he gripped a golf club, it would have these kind of dimensions.
The dimensions will affect the way the club is swung.

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