Masters 2019...

Re: Masters 2019...

Postby Wknhacker » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:00 am

In my opinion the whole "rolling back the ball" debate would end pretty quickly if Augusta were to implement it's own 'rolled back ball' for the Masters tournament to be used by all participants and invitees.

Which current tour pro will decline an invitation to play the Masters in protest of having to use a standard ball? None. In no time the idea for a standardized rolled back ball for the PGA tour would go from "crazy" to "it's already a thing".
"I have a tip that can take five strokes off anyone's golf game: it's called an eraser." - Arnold Palmer
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Re: Masters 2019...

Postby k2baloo » Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:04 pm

The trajectory argument is off IMO.

Sure, if the only thing that had changed was trajectory, then it makes sense. But the greens are run at completely different speeds, complexes have been rebuilt, and the ball is different. Hitting into the current greens on the trajectories the old players did wouldn't work. Look at #4, it plays 240 yards into a firm green. I see loads of players running out of green as is. You can't hold that green with the old trajectory even if that was what it was originally built for.

I think Augusta plays great in today's game because of all the changes they've made. I'm not saying it's the SAME as it used to be, but it holds up well. #13 is a glaring exception and depending on conditions #15 also plays too soft. 13 definitely needs to change IMO if they can't roll back the ball. The front 9 is a very difficult, and they've made a lot of the holes longer and tighter over the years to accommodate the way the game is played now. They've added a lot of length and trees and the secondary cut.

The Masters and the British Open tend to be my favorite tourneys nowadays. If you look past the issues with #13, I think Augusta is a good one to watch. If you watch expecting it to be the same course and golf as 40 years ago, then you'll be disappointed.
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Re: Masters 2019...

Postby lagpressure » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:28 pm

No long irons into par 4's. That critical skill set to test a professional is non existent.
No dramatic decision is being made to "go for it in two" on the par 5's when they are hitting mid to even short irons at times into 13 and 15.
The 2nd is the only hole resembling a par 5.

They've done a fair job of modernizing it for today's game... but there was nothing wrong with the old game. It's certainly less interesting...
and the skill sets needed to win the event have been narrowed significantly. You don't need the broad palate of shotmaking that was once required.

The winners now are the best of today's game relative to the competition. Best player wins...
but so would the winner be the best if the game was 144 guys tossing spit wads into a bucket from 20 feet. Someone would win and be the best at that as well.
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Re: Masters 2019...

Postby apples2967 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:43 am

The game today, disgust me.
This beautiful game that demanded precision, has sold its soul to power.

To those who remember a beautiful strike with persimmon on a balata ball , or a pure iron, shaped into a back right flag from 200. The games essence has been lost. The battle between Golfer and architect, has been ruined.

The great courses built, during the 1900's and beyond, stood the test of time, but could not withstand the greed of some. So many majestic masterpieces have been swept aside, thru greed.

I try to still play today, in the quiet of an afternoon. I still play the persimmon, the blades, but vomit at the plastic ball i meant to play.

The game is lost, and the only way to correction, is to find its way home. Back to what set it apart. Ball striking was paramount, now its swing speed, spin ratio, and distance that mean most . I dont buy todays game, i dont like todays game. Im no longer able to shape my shot, and the reason for that is Greed!

Steve
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Re: Masters 2019...

Postby k2baloo » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:41 am

I am a bigger fan of the classic game than modern. But the complaining is just amazing.

Lag,
Go out and play the modern game in tournament pressure and then we'll see. Otherwise, why should your opinion be more highly valued than anyone else's?? I've never completed at a high level, but at least I've given both styles of play a try for extended periods.
Seriously, if it's that dumbed down, go prove just once that it's really that simple... Would drum up a lot more interest in vintage stuff than perceived old-man speculation.
Or, not even tournaments. Throw something on YouTube. You can come beat me once persimmon and once modern style. Or find an actual player to match up. I'll film and put it on YouTube.
I mean, I know you'll say No as that's your MO, but it sure beats forum debates :D
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Re: Masters 2019...

Postby apples2967 » Wed May 01, 2019 12:23 am

New beating old or vice versa is not what im talking about.

The essence of the game has been lost. The day when u use all 14 clubs in one round, would be rare indeed today.

I remember, being a caddie for my club pro, in a Pro Am at my home club. The year was 1982. We were playing with great lil aussie player, Bill Dunk. We started on the 10th hole, a long par 4, water down the right, trees left. This hole is 410m or 450 yards. My boss and Bill hit cracking tee shots. Bill had a 3 iron into a green, 40 foot deep, but 15 feet wide. He hit it center of the green. My boss had 4 iron in, missed in a hair, and was bunkered. Today that hole, is driver , gap wedge. That explains it all, the essence has be lost.

The R&A , the USGA and the USPGA should hang their collective heads in shame for selling this game out.
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Re: Masters 2019...

Postby k2baloo » Wed May 01, 2019 7:12 am

I think we all understand that point. Given the equipment changes, if holes have not been updated their original design is ruined and they don't play properly.

I would also agree that, in an ideal world, the governing bodies would have put stronger restrictions on equipment to avoid the massive changes and maintain a consistent game.

I'm pointing out nearly all the holes at Augusta have been changed - lengthened, trees added, fairways narrowed, faster greens, many greens have been rebuilt etc... Like I said, 13 doesn't play right anymore at all - %100. 15 isn't great either. BUT, if you actually watch many of the other holes they play well and are very difficult. 1, 4, 5, 7, 10, 11, 14, 17, 18 are great holes. I like number 3 too with the strategy of how far to hit the ball down there - do it right and you have a birdie chance, but easy to make bogey too.
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Re: Masters 2019...

Postby lagpressure » Wed May 01, 2019 8:06 am

k2baloo wrote:I am a bigger fan of the classic game than modern. But the complaining is just amazing.

Lag,
Go out and play the modern game in tournament pressure and then we'll see. Otherwise, why should your opinion be more highly valued than anyone else's?? I've never completed at a high level, but at least I've given both styles of play a try for extended periods.
Seriously, if it's that dumbed down, go prove just once that it's really that simple... Would drum up a lot more interest in vintage stuff than perceived old-man speculation.
Or, not even tournaments. Throw something on YouTube. You can come beat me once persimmon and once modern style. Or find an actual player to match up. I'll film and put it on YouTube.
I mean, I know you'll say No as that's your MO, but it sure beats forum debates :D


1. For one, the golf swing itself is completely different. Try picking up a pencil then a hammer. You are going to use different muscles. The hammer is going to engage more muscles and bigger muscles. The hammer will strike with more force and engage the entire body than something much lighter.

2. The courses were IN FACT YES IN FACT.... oh, wait let me say this one more time... IN FACT!!! designed so that players of ALL LEVELS... wait ... did I say that LOUD ENOUGH ..... ALL LEVELS!!!!!! even top pros would be required to play LONG IRONS into par 4's three or four times a round. Par fives designed to be three shot holes.. with lines and angles for both the tee shot and second shot approach paramount. Any attempt to reach the green in two shots should be with significant risk.... not just flipping in mid iron or even short iron.

3. Golf is arguably the greatest game ever invented. The most inclusive of the human mind, physical body, natural beauty, weather and geographic topography combined into a challenge unlike no other. I respect and appreciate what was given to us by the last generation, what was taught to us by them and will not accept less.

4. I LOVE the FEEL of the great game. The much more sophisticated wound rubber balata ball. A liquid core inside a marble sized rubber ball covered with two miles of rubber thread, then covered by a soft balata cover that was so soft I could dent it with my fingernail. This was the great ball. Why would I want to play anything less? A ball I can shape, spin, that will hold it's shape in the air all the way down to the ground... not lose it's shape after apex.

5. Like baseball, I love the crack of the wood, the beautiful unique organic sound of persimmon striking balata. Probably why I prefer the sound of a nicely tuned piano or a Martin Guitar.... over dropping a piece of concrete onto a piece of aluminum siding.

6. I prefer steel spikes that allow me to properly grip the ground over cheap plastic spikes that wear out quickly so they can keep selling you new ones every month.

7. If I am going to compete, we are all going to play the same game. It was great to see The Warriors win last night because they haven't changed the size of the court or the ball in 50 years, and one team doesn't shoot into a different sized hoop than the other. The game needs to be equal dimensions for both teams and players. I'll play a persimmon and blades event anytime. Pick the game you like and play it. I don't see master chess players wasting their time playing checkers.

8. As far as dumbing down the game, I have zero interest in dumbing down MY game. We proved this with the TRGA events a few years back. All the pros who had adapted to the modern gear came out to play the old stuff. They played terrible, and lost by 7 shots to a guy who never took the blue pill... and he didn't even play that well. Pretty insightful stuff.

9. As far as having some need to "PROVE" anything, I think I've done enough of that... competition etc. The only "proving" I am interested in is proving that I can still shoot 66 with persimmon and blades on a good day on a quality track playing the game I prefer... love and enjoy.

10. I don't see how playing a frying pan driver with a bunch of hybrids and a rocket ball is in anyway going to inspire others to play the great game using persimmon and blades across the correct course designed for such equipment. My touring pro friends who still compete with the modern nonsense are not inspiring ANYONE to play the great game. I don't see them promoting the classic game and they are as much the problem as the equipment itself.

11. Mike and I have restored a vast amount of irons and woods that have been saved from cobweb covered attics or landfills and put them back onto golf courses across the planet. I recently sent out 7 sets of irons to Eastern Europe. Yesterday I played with a student who has been enjoying the great game for years now playing a set of Persimmon Stan Thompson woods and MacGregor VFQ blades that play better than any of the pot metal cast iron garbage that people pay thousands for in today's golf shops.

12. Speaking of the TRGA, I doubt it's any coincidence the USGA recently adopted nearly all the TRGA rules into the modern game. No doubt they looked at it and adopted it. Don't need the credit... but I know they saw the site and took it to heart obviously. I feel quite good about that.

13. As the TRGA example shows.... this game needs at least ONE purist and intelligent voice out there. ABS is modern enough to be ONLINE, have a website, have some youtube presence and a voice of common sense moving forward.

14. Mare Island Golf course just closed for good. The oldest golf course west of the Mississippi river that has been there since 1892 and a great shotmakers course that I had yet to see even one touring pro or collegiate player shoot par on, is gone for now. So what does that say about this generation of golfers?
NOT MUCH! That a great historic layout doesn't have enough value in today's society because it doesn't fit the bomb and gouge game today's players embrace? It's wrong. You could play the course in the afternoon for $10.... a bucket of balls at most driving ranges.

15. The Mare is Gone. Why? Because it was not embraced by the modern game. I don't think anything could demonstrate the serious issues facing golf more than this example and I will in no way support the modern game.
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Re: Masters 2019...

Postby LesMurray » Wed May 01, 2019 10:59 am

lagpressure wrote:...Mare Island Golf course just closed for good. The oldest golf course west of the Mississippi river that has been there since 1892 and a great shotmakers course that I had yet to see even one touring pro or collegiate player shoot par on, is gone for now.


No wonder I couldn't get a tee time or call the pro shop. I ended up booking over at Lincoln Park for Monday morning.
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Re: Masters 2019...

Postby Ded2Journey » Wed May 01, 2019 3:48 pm

:mrgreen:

Great Stuff! Oh man...

Lag,

Some of us do have a vision of changing the game...but in order to do so, you have to beat them at their game. I see the classic game in the exact same light as you, but I'm stepping up to take these guys down. I'm not afraid, just broke...and I'd love a fellow competitor out there showing people how easy this game is with the modern ball. I could care less if I'm alone, that's my burden...but don't act like you're the only one holding up the torch.

Anyway, I agree with K2 on the fact that change only happens from inside the system. I'm trying my best to get into it so I can show these people what has happened. Better yet, to show them what they're missing...

To quote Henry Ford via Steve Jobs:

I think Henry Ford once said, "If I'd asked customers what they wanted, they would have told me, 'A faster horse!'" People don't know what they want until you show it to them. That's why I never rely on market research. Our task is to read things that are not yet on the page.” -Steve Jobs



My $.02 as always...
"People have always been telling me what I can't do. I guess I have wanted to show them. That's been one of my driving forces all my life." -Ben Hogan
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