I'm fed up with the Modern Driver...how about you?

Re: I'm fed up with the Modern Driver...how about you?

Postby k2baloo » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:15 am

Ded2Journey wrote:K2,

I totally agree, but I haven't gone down the road of testing this yet. I can feel it and understand the geometry/physics...but finding people with metal wood loft/lie adapters is almost impossible nowadays. I'll keep plugging away until I do, and I'll let you know how it goes. Question is though, why are most persimmons I see Toe in/slightly shut? Seems there is an inertia issue being addressed there...imho.


That's a great question to which I have no answer. Most persimmons look shut to my eye as well, especially the high lofted woods. Having dug through a bunch of them I have a few now that sit nicely.
k2baloo
 
Posts: 914
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 5:43 pm

Re: I'm fed up with the Modern Driver...how about you?

Postby nfbandon » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:54 am

Interesting on the persimmons. The ones I have don't look closed at all. In fact, to my eye Hogan drivers are generally set open. My favorite driver dates back to high school, a 48' Mac with Ben Hogan on the top. It was the driver Miller used to win the 73' Open I have been told. It sets up square as can be.

D2J...that is a serious shaft. I agree lower torque is good. Is your transition quick? A quick transition might justify that stiff a shaft. Otherwise, I don't know. Conventional wisdom is that too stiff a shaft causes the ball to go right. My experience is the opposite. If the shaft is so stiff that I can't load it I often hit a quick hook...ie a nose dive to the left. I think you are a lot younger than me so you can probably handle that shaft.
nfbandon
 
Posts: 1063
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:03 pm

Re: I'm fed up with the Modern Driver...how about you?

Postby Ded2Journey » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:38 am

nfbandon wrote:Interesting on the persimmons. The ones I have don't look closed at all. In fact, to my eye Hogan drivers are generally set open. My favorite driver dates back to high school, a 48' Mac with Ben Hogan on the top. It was the driver Miller used to win the 73' Open I have been told. It sets up square as can be.

D2J...that is a serious shaft. I agree lower torque is good. Is your transition quick? A quick transition might justify that stiff a shaft. Otherwise, I don't know. Conventional wisdom is that too stiff a shaft causes the ball to go right. My experience is the opposite. If the shaft is so stiff that I can't load it I often hit a quick hook...ie a nose dive to the left. I think you are a lot younger than me so you can probably handle that shaft.



That's really interesting...makes me question some things.

Honestly, it's way too much shaft...but it was given to me for free. I have grown to love how well it holds up my technique, but until I can get a driver with a pop in adapter--it's far too difficult to test shafts using theory alone. Thus, I am sure it is a slight combination of shaft and lie angle--but the flatter I get, the flatter I want to go. Seems that is the bigger culprit in my experience anyway. I still duck hooked it with different shafts, but I removed the high block by going to a telephone pole.

As far as persimmons go, when I sold clubs for my vintage dealer I would often go hit the persimmons and vintage blades to understand the difference. I was always slightly annoyed by the shut toe look. Still want a mint set of M85's with Hogan #5 shafts... :roll: :mrgreen: :lol:

Anyway, like K2B said...I believe you have to rummage through a few to find the good ones. I think having a square to slightly open face for shallower techniques would be very beneficial though. Question is...why did even Hogan play a purposefully closed face driver? At least based on Internet mythology...
"People have always been telling me what I can't do. I guess I have wanted to show them. That's been one of my driving forces all my life." -Ben Hogan
Ded2Journey
 
Posts: 745
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 4:54 pm

Re: I'm fed up with the Modern Driver...how about you?

Postby nfbandon » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:59 am

I didn't know Hogan played a closed driver. As I said the Hogan drivers I have seen often have an open face. If his face were closed it might have been to force him to hold the clubface off. Carol Mann used to teach the opposite of conventional theory on working the ball...closed for a fade and open for a draw...the theory is that your subconscious will over correct...so you work closed to open with a closed face and open to closed with an open face at address.

As for the shaft flex...I really think that is way too stiff for anyone that is trying to play real golf. I think you need to get up in the 130s to get a proper launch of that shaft. I play an 85 gram rogue X and have a driver speed of 108. Just like anything else you can get too much of a good thing.
nfbandon
 
Posts: 1063
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:03 pm

Re: I'm fed up with the Modern Driver...how about you?

Postby norcalvol » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:05 pm

There is a short film segment on Secret Golf where the crew visit the Hogan museum in Texas... Elkington holds one of Hogan's drivers... comments on the reminder (wire) under the grip that was in such a location resulting in the clubface being slightly open at address.
Accelerate forever!
User avatar
norcalvol
 
Posts: 490
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:01 pm
Location: Bay Area, California

Re: I'm fed up with the Modern Driver...how about you?

Postby Stu Carlburger » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:45 pm

In re: Hogans face angle, or any of his club specs, why can’t it be both. Wouldn’t it seem logical that a player of Hogan’s skill and exacting standards would have drivers, with different face angles, for different courses and conditions? As K2 said, and a point with which I wholeheartedly agree, face angle is way more effective at starting the ball left or right. We’ve heard he also had very little to no roll and bulge, i.e., he wants that ball starting exactly where he’s pointing the face.

This jibes well with the open face draw and closed faced fade concepts. Seems to me as consistent as his path and ball position were likely to have been he could work the ball’s starting position like a veritable dial, and if he did it with face angle he didn’t need any compensation moves and could simply work the shot with his finish — as we saw repeatedly in his famous match with Snead. Personally, I don’t really care what Hogan’s specs were, other than its 100% clear to me that his clubs — especially his driver — was very flat.

When starting line is dictated by lie angle, we’ve now added in the degree of handle into the equation. The commonly held belief is that due to the drivers relatively low loft the lie has a negligible effect. Although this technically may be true when robots are used, and their vertical wrist angle cannot change dynamically, when humans do it I believe that we are always trying the find that angle again. I believe I’ve experienced what’s D2J is saying, and I don’t believe it’s a phenomenon that the OEM’s have data on.

It’s a scenario where through sheer force of conscious will one refuses to allow the handle to raise. If you get your irons to the right lie, in my experience, this feeling work well, but produces knee-high rope hooks with the driver. I’ve seen the numbers from a swing like that on a GC4 with a TM SLDR and the guy (who worked for GC4, by the way) was astounded. 16.5* toe up with the ball’s spin axis illustration like this “/“ ... nearly vertical. Obviously we don’t swing like that too often if we’re sane because the results are so bad, However, technique wise, it’s actually a very good swing. Again, no hitters the OEM’s use, and certainly not their robots swing this way. So they say, “oh lie angle doesn’t do much ...” and give us some negligible figure. But then why are we at 58, 60, even 61 degrees?

Then we all wonder why we struggle integrate the irons and driver. It’s simple, the driver (and fairway woods, and hybrids) are woefully too upright. For someone lie D2J, I’ll bet that even at 54 degrees that Wishon is about 8* too uptight.
Stu Carlburger
 
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:35 pm

Re: I'm fed up with the Modern Driver...how about you?

Postby lagpressure » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:16 pm

Every element is important.

Lie angles are very important for all clubs. There is no reason to have these out of sync anywhere in the set.
Clubs need to be different lengths despite the all one length tour pro. I am sure his driver is not the length of a 7 iron.

Keeping the progressions consistent should not be overlooked.

Weight
loft
Lie angle
shaft flex
User avatar
lagpressure
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8009
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:50 pm

Re: I'm fed up with the Modern Driver...how about you?

Postby Ded2Journey » Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:17 pm

lagpressure wrote:Every element is important.

Lie angles are very important for all clubs. There is no reason to have these out of sync anywhere in the set.
Clubs need to be different lengths despite the all one length tour pro. I am sure his driver is not the length of a 7 iron.

Keeping the progressions consistent should not be overlooked.

Weight
loft
Lie angle
shaft flex


I have been working diligently on this Lag. It is quite the interesting process once devoted. Each piece adds stability to the foundation that I've built over the years. I imagine after going through this and having a set of modern gear I'm pretty happy with overall--I would rank these like so (for the modern ball):

1. Flat Lie Angle (progressive...1/2"-1 degree)
1a. Offset in Irons, Face progression in hybrids/woods/driver
2. Weight ( important to note that this includes overall and swing--with the goal being overall balance of feel & feedback/foregiveness)
3. Shaft flex (more importantly, anti-torque properties like tip torque)--see deflection board discussion for greater understanding. Very deep rabbit hole here...
4. Loft (progressive to ensure gap coverage--this also is NOT STANDARD when done diligently)
5. Face progression (open vs. square vs. closed)--my next rabbit hole I imagine. :mrgreen:
6. Grip Size (including individualized wraps, etc.)--this is more important than I could have ever imagined before I started this journey.

Although they are somewhat organized in my mind this way, I must say that each of these characteristics need be closely examined. Additionally, for every change in one category, expect a equal/opposite reaction in some other category.

My $.02 anyway... 8-)
I
"People have always been telling me what I can't do. I guess I have wanted to show them. That's been one of my driving forces all my life." -Ben Hogan
Ded2Journey
 
Posts: 745
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 4:54 pm

Previous

Return to Equipment

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron