Ben Hogan WITB

Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby Hot Soup » Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:48 pm

Wishon said that all of Hogan's shafts were tipped 2". Did this necessitate that he bore out all of his irons to accept the tip diameter?
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby lagpressure » Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:08 pm

Not necessary if they were parallel tipped... but if they were taper tipped, then they would have to be bored out.
The nice thing about having a step pattern in your shafts is that you can tell by eye how they are set up.
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby lagpressure » Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:39 pm

Here are some quotes from Tom Wishon


I still remember the only time I saw Hogan play in a tour event on TV as a kid was the 1966 Masters. The Saturday round he shot 66 which included him shooting 30 on the back 9. I still remember the commentators summing up that back nine - he hit all 9 greens, hit both par 5's in 2, never had a birdie or eagle putt longer than 10 feet and had 14 putts to shoot 6 under for that nine. Made 4 birdie putts and two putted both the par 5's for birdies, but really could have shot an 11 under 25 for that nine - what he did still was remarkable because by 1966, he really was very shaky with the putter.

But. . . I did get to meet and spend a decent amount of time that day with Gene Sheeley, who for decades was Mr. Hogan's personal clubmaker at the Hogan factory. Gene had a separate workshop from the rest of the factory that was sort of like the "sanctum sanctorum" and I was told that few got to venture into this workshop. So that was cool. Part of that time included being able to look at, check out and measure things on Mr. Hogan's personal playing sets that he had used over the years.

One of the things that was very interesting was that Hogan always played X flex steel shafts, tipped 2" additional for every club. Gene explained to me that he had originally done this back when he fought a hook so badly before he found his "swing secret" that the books and magazines since then have written so much about.

As he got rid of the hook and became the best ball striker on the planet, Gene said he remained with the 2" tip X shafts because he had developed the sense of feel to where he absolutely hated any shaft that he could feel bend during the swing, and especially when he released the club to impact. Even in 1987, when I think Mr Hogan was in his mid 70s and did not play very much anymore, the few times he headed out to Shady Oaks to hit balls, he still preferred hitting these X tipped 2" shafts in his clubs.

So the point is - we develop fitting parameters for shaft fitting but when a player has a very specific feel preference for the shaft, the textbook fitting techniques can get tossed out the window!

I was shocked to see how sharp the leading edge was on his irons, especially his wedges. Any other player would hit 80% of his shots "fat", with this type of leading edge grind. they were also ground very flat both from face to back as well as from heel to toe.

I did not notice that the sole angles were "scoop" which is what they would have to be if they "sat 5 deg open".

The clubs were all quite flat in lie, also the woods bored that way. And when I say woods I mean wooden woods in his bag in 1987.

Face angles of the woods were closed, my guess at least 2* shut from what I recall. Gene said despite his old propensity to hook the ball badly, this was because of Hogan's "new swing move" .

And the clubs were HEAVY, I rememeber - both in total weight and in swingweight.

I did have the chance to handle and waggle and look at one of the sets Ben played in his prime that Gene still had in his workshop. So I can only share some recollections from a long time ago that I picked up from simply handling the clubs.

Yes, Hogan's clubs were flatter in lie, were quite heavy in both total weight and swingweight, and with VERY STIFF shafts. I can't remember exactly how flat because I did not have the chance to do any measurements. But I would guess from memory at least 3 to 4 degs flat for the irons.

The shafts were an old precursor to the Hogan Apex 5 (X-Stiff) steel shafts which also had been tipped an additional 2 INCHES from normal for this shaft. Sheely told me that Ben did not like to feel the shaft bend during his swing so by experimentation he kept tipping the shafts and hitting shots until he arrived on this shaft with the 2" tip as being what he perceived did not demonstrate any bending or "kicking type" feel. Gene said Ben felt that if he could detect the shaft bending or kicking, he felt this meant he could lose some control over the shot.

Total weight wise, these Apex 5 X shafts were heavy to begin with. So since the shaft weight is the #1 determinant of the total weight, this certainly contributed to the heavy overall weight feel. But Ben also used a little higher than normal swingweight - what it was again I don;t know for sure because I was not allowed to put the clubs on a scale or do any measurements. But by waggling the clubs, I would have to say they could have been in the area of D5 or so. Just a guess tho.

More mass in the HEAD can contribute to a little more ball speed but ONLY IF THE GOLFER CAN STILL ACHIEVE THEIR MAX CLUBHEAD SPEED WITH THE HEAVIER HEADWEIGHT. Clubhead speed rules all with respect to distance, regardless of the mass of the head or clubs. And with most golfers, if you keep increasing headweight, you will get to a point that they cannot maintain clubhead speed so they then will lose distance.

TOM WISHON
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby Hot Soup » Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:47 pm

Cool excerpt, Lag. My comment was made with the assumption that they would have been taper tips, because weren't parallel tips pretty rare (or nonexistent) back then?
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby lagpressure » Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:09 pm

I don't know the exact year parallel tips were introduced, but it's a good question.
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby Hot Soup » Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:10 pm

Lag,

Are you reshafting your classic blades with parallel tip shafts?
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby IronOfZion » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:26 am

Hot Soup wrote:Wishon said that all of Hogan's shafts were tipped 2". Did this necessitate that he bore out all of his irons to accept the tip diameter?

AFAIK, all the hogan irons from that era accepted taper tip shafts. You will have to bore out the hosels a tiny bit in most cases due to the tapering (duh :lol: ) of the shaft tip. At least this was the case with the hogan irons ('67 percussions) I reshafted last year.
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby lagpressure » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:03 am

Are you reshafting your classic blades with parallel tip shafts?


Yes, I am putting in parallel tips and re boring. It's a top of work, but taper tips are a nightmare to work with when
reshafting. I don't mind playing them or how they feel with a bit higher flex point, but as a hitter, shaft flex issues,
frequency matching, spining, and all that stuff is not really necessary. Swingers however can benefit from paying
attention to that stuff.

As long as the shaft is firm enough to handle a heavy head, then I'm good to go. I agree with Hogan, I don't like to feel
the shaft flexing at all during the swing. It does some of course, but I don't like to feel it moving around. I also don't like
soft grips. I don't want any slop between my fingers and the steel of the shaft. That's another poor trend in golf. Cushy grips.
It's important that the firmness in your grip aid in resisting any twisting of the clubface due to off center hits. If your grips are soft, the shaft can twist ever so slightly. Bad engineering.
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby Hot Soup » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:08 am

I figured that must've been the case. What are you using to bore out the hosel? Do you have a drill press?

Soup
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby mikeytdurbs » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:09 am

lagpressure wrote:
Are you reshafting your classic blades with parallel tip shafts?


Yes, I am putting in parallel tips and re boring. It's a top of work, but taper tips are a nightmare to work with when
reshafting. I don't mind playing them or how they feel with a bit higher flex point, but as a hitter, shaft flex issues,
frequency matching, spining, and all that stuff is not really necessary. Swingers however can benefit from paying
attention to that stuff.

As long as the shaft is firm enough to handle a heavy head, then I'm good to go. I agree with Hogan, I don't like to feel
the shaft flexing at all during the swing. It does some of course, but I don't like to feel it moving around. I also don't like
soft grips. I don't want any slop between my fingers and the steel of the shaft. That's another poor trend in golf. Cushy grips.
It's important that the firmness in your grip aid in resisting any twisting of the clubface due to off center hits. If your grips are soft, the shaft can twist ever so slightly. Bad engineering.

Hi lagpressure.
PLEASE can you explain to me what parallel tips and reboring means. And what is the difference beween swing weight and the other weight?
Another thing, can't one measure the lie angles of hogans clubs using video of his swing and v1 software?
Thanks
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