Ben Hogan WITB

Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby lagpressure » Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:34 pm

PLEASE can you explain to me what parallel tips


Parallel tips are where the shafts will have the same diameter from the last step all the way down to the tip of the shaft. Taper tips are slightly V shaped or taper narrower down. Tapers make the shafts stiffer and the bottom and move the flex point up the shaft.. so you see this more in drivers and fairway woods. It was a way to use thinner shafts and keep them a bit stiffer.




and reboring means.


Reboring for persimmon means you remove the shaft, fill the hole with a wood dowel or plug or sawdust-glue material, then re drill the hole usually flatter in the case around these parts.



And what is the difference beween swing weight and the other weight?


Swing weight defines a balancing point between the head and grip. Dead weight is simply the overall weight of the club if you were to simply put it on a postage scale. Dead weight is much more important because that is the weight of the club you are pulling down from the top and driving through impact and beyond. The ball will respond much more to changes in dead weight than swing weight, especially if you are swinging the golf club correctly.


Another thing, can't one measure the lie angles of hogans clubs using video of his swing and v1 software?
Thanks


No necessarily, because of camera angles and distortion from the camera lens or even your monitor. It certainly gives you an idea.. you can clearly see that Hogan's gear was set up far more flat than what we see offered in pro shops today.. you don't need special software to see that. But where a camera is positioned can change the appearance of angles quite easily.

I think we have a photo here of Hogan's one iron from what appears to be pretty straight on, and close up.. so that gives a pretty good idea of how he had his irons set up.
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby lagpressure » Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:10 pm

Hogan1iron.jpg
Hogan1iron.jpg (78.41 KiB) Viewed 4415 times


This is a pretty close up clear photo not likely to have much distortion. Much in the way an archeologist would surmise what the other bones looked like.

Most sets are going to be set up in 1/2 longer going up through the set. The clubs lie angle will move about 3/4 of a degree more upright as the irons get shorter. The heads get heavier as the clubs get shorter, and the shafts get stiffer to accommodate the extra weighting.

Half inch step patterns are common. 1/3 an ounce heavier per club typically as you move into shorter clubs.

So you can figure out a lot from just looking at one club...

Of course Hogan's woods would be flatter... with the driver likely being 46 or 47 I would guess.. It does look like that to me on most films.
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby mikeytdurbs » Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:35 am

Thanks Lag appreciate the reply you are like a frikken encyclopedia :D

How would I modify my modern gear to match Hogan's?

I am about to purchase Taylormade rac blades with project x shafts (I think the spec is 6.0) and and getting them bent 4 degrees flat.
What should I do with weight/lead tape?

Here is my current swing
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... 3.2.3l12l0

Look how upright as a result of my current gear
Can't wait to have my swing look even more like Hogan's than Knudson :D
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby mikeytdurbs » Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:39 am

Oh and Hogan's irons were set 3 or so degrees open? What does that mean? How can he have his clubs set open and hit it straight without flipping the club shut at the bottom?
I see Chris made a post saying he's amazed at how shut Hogan is coming into the ball.
This seems like the reason
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby lagpressure » Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:54 am

How can he have his clubs set open and hit it straight without flipping the club shut at the bottom?


Flat and very aggressive post impact pivot acceleration. You square up the face with the body rotation.

From what I understand, Hogan would have bent his irons strong, then shaved off or scalped the bottom inside flange so they would then sit open and then get back to the proper loft he wanted for that club. Consistent with reports of having a 5:00 grip reminder.

I suspect his personal gear was set up totally different than anything that came out of the Hogan Factory or any other factory for that matter. You certainly don't see irons set up that flat on the store shelves.. especially today. And Nick Watney hits another 8 iron into the left bunker on tour. It's not impressive.
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby lagpressure » Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:57 am

hogan_knudson.jpg


study the 4th a 5th frames of each, and notice how far the shoulders have rotated in relation to hand travel.
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby mikeytdurbs » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:05 am

That Hogan Knudson comparison is AMAZING.

What is that 5:0 grip thing youre talking about
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby lagpressure » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:54 am

They used to put a wire under the leather grip wrap ... a little ridge you could feel when you put your hands on the club.
The theory was that it would help the player get his or her hands on the club the same way every time.

Hogan apparently had his under the shaft and rotated to about 5:00, so that when he gripped the club, the face would lay open a bit. You can see it in some of the videos out there.
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby mikeytdurbs » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:01 am

Ya Lag the ballstriking is so poor these days really. Their swings are all so crap and steep I mean how poor was the field at the hyundai tournament of champions this week I LOVE WATCHING GOLF I hardly ever miss a tournament on tv and honestly it's getting harder and harder to watch with the poor quality of ballstriking, poor swings and commentators who dish out rubbish advice and analysis(US Tour Miller etc). It's just a chipping and putting contest now they might as well play par 3 courses
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby k2baloo » Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:50 pm

lagpressure wrote:Tom Wishon who is a world renowned club designer, was in the backroom at the Hogan factory and had access to the "Hogan sanctorum" and took close note of Hogan's gear, held the clubs, and wrote a letter to us here a couple years ago.

I trust Wishon's account more than a guy who shagged balls for Hogan.. sorry...

Wishon said Hogan's various iron sets throughout his playing career were set up with 2 " tipped X shafts..
Tom told us that in conversations with Gene Sheely (Ben's designer) that he developed his swing around a feel that had no room for feeling any shaft flex in the swing. Hogan hated feeling the shaft bending.. therefore XX STIFF. He used the tipped X's even into his mid 70's when he would on occasion go out for a hit.

He had a razor sharp leading edge grind, and the irons were grinded or scooped to sit 5 degrees open. This would be consistent with other accounts of Hogan having a rib in his grips at 5 O Clock. Hogan played and swung persimmon till the day he died, and the persimmons were bored out flat. Tom said his gear was about 8 degrees flat.

Wishon also noted that his irons were very heavy, in both swing weight and dead or overall weight.

I personally held Moe's clubs, and they also were HEAVY.. Paul here has held Moe's clubs also and says that Moe swung 1 pound golf clubs. Moe hated light gear as did Hogan. I raise my hand too.

Paul is going to try and contact George Knudson's son, who may be able to shed some light on how George had his gear set up. Hopefully he might have a few of George's sets still laying around somewhere that we can learn something from.

As far as Vasquez, well, he may have seen Ben testing out a consumer set, and claimed that that was the set Ben was hitting.. I don't know.. but like I said.. I trust Wishon more than a caddyshack story as far as properly assessing gear.

Now the question is .. do we overtime become what we swing? If you drive a Ferrari everyday on a sloping curving track, you will certainly become a different driver than if you were to only drive a Volkwagon Beetle on straight flat roads daily.

If we are what we eat, then we are what we swing also.

There is no doubt that you will evolve from the gear you play.


Lag, are you referencing the the words of Tom Wishon posted later in this thread?
Here you say Tom said they were scooped to sit 5 degrees open, but in his words he said he did not notice such a scoop. Also, he said the irons were at least 3-4 degrees flat, but nothing about them being 8* flat.
I am not saying they were or weren't open and 8* flat, but I have seen two sources of Tom discussing Hogan's clubs and never saw him say either of those things.
Anyway, sorry I scooped up a dead thread but I was doing some research
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