Ben Hogan WITB

Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby twomasters » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:06 pm ... xpect.html

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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby LesMurray » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:14 am

Are you going to submit a bid Bradley?
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby Mashie72 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:50 pm

The 3-iron's lie looks standard to me... 58?
"The secret is on the deck"
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby Hot Soup » Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:00 pm

Does anybody know what models of wedges he used during his Macgregor days and his Ben Hogan days? I have seen several pics of his iron sets, but never his woods or wedges.
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby eth14dev » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:59 am

Hey guys just a question I wanted to get thoughts on.

While doing research on my favorite golfers: Byron Nelson and Ben Hogan stumbled upon something regarding Mr. Hogan.

Did anyone ever notice he used pyratone green shafts, for a while in his irons in the early forties? My question is: does anyone know what model of shaft they were? I know the TT Dynamic came out in 1942, but it seems he had used these shafts prior and at some point switched to chromed shafts as the 1953 auctioned set and the 1950 1 iron show.

Seeing as many of the green shafts I have seen have no label and the few that do, say "dynamic", is it safe to conjecture that he used the original TT step-down with the green shaft? Seems Mr. nelson used green shafts early too, although I don't know from what year to year, during the 40's, to my understanding, Mr. Nelson stuck with the old TT step-down since the war put golf equipment manufacturing into the non-priority industry situation. I wonder if Mr. Hogan switched to chrome after coming back in late 1945 or, during 1946 after his tenure in the military?

Does anyone know when Mr. Hogan switched from the Green to chromed shafts. Were the chromed the same model? Or something else? TT Rockets perhaps, seeing as all the Precision Experimentals I have seen photos of on the interwebs always seem to have the Rockets. Anyone know when were the Rockets released?

I realize these questions are a shot in the dark, just figure I ask is all because I was shocked to see the green in Mr. Hogan's bag.
Provided some photos.
Note the section with Mr. and Mrs. Hogan
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Note the shade of the irons vs woods
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby lagpressure » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:08 pm

I think the Green Shaft Pyratones are some of the best shafts ever made. They are very stiff and heavy. Just a great feeling shaft. One of the best feedback shafts I have hit. You just feel everything, and I am sure this is why Hogan liked them along with Nelson and others.

Memory tells me they came out in the Mid 40's and ran production for a few years till around 1950. The Rockets came out soon after that and were in many clubs in the Mid to late 50's. Then the ProPel shafts were showing up in sets more and more into the 1960's which had more of a tip flex. The next big innovation was the Apex shaft and then the wonderful Apex 5 shaft.

There were plenty of experimental shafts such as aluminum, fiberglass, graphite and other alloys.

My favorite shafts are the Pyratones, The Green Band Rockets, The ProPel #1's and Apex 5. After that, shafts just got too light for my tastes. While light gets more speed, you lose feel on the back end. There is always a give and take to most so called improvements.
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby eth14dev » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:55 pm

Dear Lag,

Thanks you for the information. Super helpful, as now I know what time frame of vintage clubs to search for. At this point, I am almost decided on my shafts, just need to try the green pyratones and the rockets, than decide between either one of those or Apex 5's. Thanks again for your thoughts, now I am confident that whenever I can pick up a set with pyratones or rockets it is a good investment whichever of the three I finalize with.

The more and more I think about it as I experiment, I feel as though I need to go full out 1930's-50's with my eventual playing set that I am researching for, at current. The whole enchilada: 1-4 persimmon woods, 1-9 forged blade irons, a pw (or double service wedge), specialized sw, and blade putter. Even the ball! Got my mind set on an old 1935-51 style Acushnet Titleist or Titleist DT. The ones that say "Geer Cadwell Cover" on them and still have the Acushnet name on the ball too. The more I learn the more I am shocked at how much control the old pros had over the spin of the ball. Getting it to drop on the green in a safe landing area then rolling sideways or backwards to the hole sometimes upwards of 10 feet, on flat greens with no noticable slope (at least on camera), or knowing how to flight the ball low under the wind and still have it bite to a screeching halt near the hole on a fast green! I no longer believe that spin is the enemy. Yes, it takes a lot of hard work to master it's use, but it is well worth it.

Now I know having a good set does not ensure a good golfer, like how an average person owning a nascar caliber automobile also does not mean they are instantly a good driver, but even the best Nascar driver would never be able to drive a car to their max potential if they brought a Volkswagen Beetle to a Nascar race. Once the gear, in this case car or golf equipment, is set up to the right standards of performance, it is up to person to diligently learn and practice. The equipment gives the potential, but ultimately, it's his/her responsibility to master its use.

Thanks again Lag for the awesome website, learning so much as I pour through the archives, even in just the public areas.
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby eth14dev » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:59 pm

Hi all,

just another update on the Ben Hogan irons that I want to open to inquiry. Now I found some interesting photos of Mr. Hogan that if the dates that were posted on the photos are accurate may give a very interesting perspective on the evolution of how Mr. Hogan developed his playing set. Of course this is just a guess from my perspective, which is why I wanted to shoot another set of thoughts and questions into the dark in case anybody might have some good explanations or thoughts.

Included in this photo lot is:
- Mr. Hogan photo with clubs in military uniform. The dark shade on the shafts makes me thing this is probably a similar or the same working set he had between 1940-1942.
- Mr. Hogan "apparently" Jan 1947 with clubs. Seems to be the same set again, although there does seem to be a little more build up of the mussel back, but it does not appear to be the full blown power bar (concentrated weight - 1951 Bantam), so could just be a trick of the camera and lighting.
- Mr. Hogan 1947(? not sure) photo with clubs - although seeing as the bag says "playing captain" maybe this is Mr. Hogan. Are those chromed shafts now instead of the green? Hard to tell because lighting issues in Black and White.

The reason why I bring this up is the iron heads this time. It seems if the dates are correct for these photos, that it was in 1947 that Mr. Hogan started experimenting with "power bar" on the back of his irons. I am assuming he tried many things before. Whether he tried the power bar prior is not known to me, but I guess between late 1946-1947 is a good estimate as to when he started to experiment more seriously with this design since it is in his irons right through 1953. Does anyone have a better idea of the time frame for the power bar?

Also, to my understanding the store line, cheap model of the Macgregor Ben Hogan 1622C came out in 1948 (a year after Mr. Hogan probably worked on this power bar personal model spec), with the 1522 model being the non-power bar version also in 1948. This is interesting to me, because we know Mr. Hogan did not play between 43-44 and only had a half season in 45, so it is reasonable to conjecture, he was using a similar personal model iron set to before his military service. But it seems that after the military, along with starting to work on his "apparent" secret (or secrets) that Mr. Hogan also, tried to dial in his iron design to be more aligned with the level of ball striking that he desired. Can anyone corroborate these photo dates? Or have any other information to add to better our understanding of Mr. Hogan's witb? As for 1946, it is a black hole for me right now, I could not find clear enough photos of the iron heads, at current.
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Look at the iron heads carefully in comparison to the military uniform photo and the green shaft color pic from the previous post. Notice the shadow sillouette.
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby eth14dev » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:06 pm

Here is a supposed 1948 shot. Check out the iron head. Green shafts, or just dull lighting?

Also, here is footage of Mr. Hogan working with a stymie:
I have attached a photo that I think is this exact shot, from a different camera angle. Again, chromed shafts or green? The b/w lighting in the photos makes it so hard to tell could be bright due to glare or flash, or maybe they are reflection of the chrome. What we know for sure is that by 1950 he is used chromed, although I do not know what model shaft. With the evidence of the Merion 1 iron, which Ironically is a personal model 1622. Assuming it was way better in quality than the shamrock store line equivalent.

Any thoughts folks on the development of Mr. Hogan's iron heads and shafts?
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Re: Ben Hogan WITB

Postby eth14dev » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:09 pm

Also, I understand that the names of Mr. Hogan store line models like Bap, Master, Texan, Par Maker, Par Master, Stylized, Bantam etc. were sometimes recycled or used in models of the same year release, but with a different code, which further complicates the issue. Anybody know definitively which model came out when and what order?
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