Lag's Personal Equipment Specifications

Re: Lag's Personal Equipment Specifications

Postby twomasters » Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:03 pm

Go Low wrote:
How can doing something (i.e. re-accelerating the clubshaft) AFTER the fact (impact) correct anything or be beneficial?


Because that is EXACTLY what golfers already try to do who flip the face or throw the head off to the right or quick hand release the club left do.......they are trying to re-intensify all their power loss from accelerating too fast too soon with their hands somewhere before impact (normally at transition)....hence the club tries to then again speed up at some point and gets thrown off course in the process....

It's ALL about intention and at ABS we have a better more specific intention than using our hands to try and recreate the speed a golfer wants to feel after impact.....why not do it right if you are going to do it at all......are we still hitting a brick wall here GoLow?

...do we want to swing a feather or a telegraph pole? (hypothetically speaking)...which one is going to allow us more mass and more clubface control by using the correct parts of the body in sequence at transition and then firing at impact and beyond.

If you think after impact doesn't mean anything (as stated above) then you will be on the merry go round of golf for eternity searching and hoping till death do us part
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Re: Lag's Personal Equipment Specifications

Postby Go Low » Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:46 pm

Go Low wrote:I'm trying to get a handle on whether you believe both (1) holding a lagging shaft flex beyond impact with a golf ball & (2) increasing the rate of acceleration of the club beyond impact with a golf ball is possible when the purpose is to perform an effective golf swing. Since both #1 and #2 go hand-in-hand, one is not possible without the other. I'd like to get your comments...


macs wrote:
macs wrote:GoLow
What will be the imprtant impliation/outcome of that answer. Do you believe that some harm is being done by claim #1 and #2 ????In general these forums have avoided "circular arguments". On the LTLGM thread you posted to understand (?meaning agree) with the logic of flat lies. But after a weak you come back and say NO. On the video of Lag that I posted, you initially said the shaft is reacting to the ball; then on Lag's expalnation that it was a whiffle ball, you instead of saying that this can be done with at least a whiffle ball, you started a new train of question in that why would he not want to transfer energy into the ball. And now we are back to the #1 and #2. At this rate we are just having a discussion with no aim. Well frankly I am not intrested in discusssion for Just that.
As a simple answer of why we dont want to transfer the shafts energy to the ball by releasing it? so we can use it as a conduit to transfer the energy from the powerful drive shaft of the rotating torso. The moment it looses flex, that transfer is interrupted.
And this is how the shafts reacts to the ball when you dont hold flex to and beyond the ball.



GoLow
I am reposting this because as you said it does'nt matter who the poster is. So you cant just selectively answer Lag and TM and ignore every other post. I think Centripedal has a pending question for you too.



What will be the imprtant impliation/outcome of that answer.[?]

There is no implication or outcome...not for me anyway because I do not use that type of technique. The answer I am [still] seeking would just add clarity for me (and no doubt others too) about this technique. And to better understand what is being taught ABS students, that are trying to learn this type of swing method, from the sole standpoint of whether both #1 and #2 are actually achievable or not. Or, if the teachers do not believe #1 and #2 are actually achievable, but instead use the instruction as a teaching means (i.e. intent or intention) to accomplish something else with the swing, e.g. better ball compression, positive shaft lean, hands staying ahead of clubhead, not flipping, etc.

Personally I do not think that accomplishing both #1 and #2 can be done, nor do I think it is desirable because there would be no transfer of energy into the golf ball from the shaft that you have worked so hard to load with lagging energy. Obviously there will be some energy unloaded into the golf ball from releasing the wrist cock angle, but if you withhold the energy from the loaded (lagging) shaft it is my opinion that you are missing-out on delivering a significant amount of built up energy you physically worked very hard to create... While I realize the main objective in this swing method is a body controlled swing driven primarily by an aggressive pivot along with active hands, I do not see the benefit of not using the purposely created energy that you have produced in the shaft to your advantage.



Do you believe that some harm is being done by claim #1 and #2 ????

I believe I have answered this question with my opinion in the second paragraph above. Let me make it clear that I do not think any "harm" is being done, only that I believe there is wasted energy at your disposal (from the stressed or lagging clubshaft) that could be used by transferring this available energy into the golf ball during impact. I simply do not understand why it would be beneficial to work and produce energy but not use it. Once the golf ball has left the clubface any energy not used is wasted energy. In fact wasted energy goes back into the body. If ("if") the intent is [only] to teach the student to maintain a lagging clubshaft beyond impact so he does not release too early, or to make sure his hands lead the clubhead into impact, or to produce a positive leaning shaft, etc., then that's fully understandable and is commonly used in teaching. However, Lag has gone beyond just suggesting that teaching #1 and #2 is just an intent message for his students. He has claimed he can do it...but when questioned about it he has backed-off the claim. Then he has talked (actually written) in circles in many post (and even within the same post) and has never given a clear and concise answer to a very clearly worded question. Now, it appears he's unwilling to state one way or the other whether it can be done...suggesting that test equipment would be needed and he would use a 10 pound club and focus on impact being at parallel 4 instead of the proper location for a real golf ball. That's not an answer to the question...it's just a lot of flip-flopping and razzle-dazzle.

I would certainly think that all the ABS students would want to know if actually doing #1 and #2 is even possible since you are being taught (or asked) to do it...and was told that it could be done. Or...whether it is just an "intent" type teaching thing. Even more importantly however, I would think that all the ABS students would want to know if they were wasting available energy by not allowing the energy of a lagging (stressed) clubshaft to transfer that energy into the golf ball at impact. You worked very hard to create that shaft energy with an aggressive pivot and active hands. It's a simple fact that if you don't use it (by transferring it into the golf ball or the ground) - that energy goes right back into your body, which produced it.

I find it rather amusing that Lag and Twomasters want to know my background and experience. It appears they are a little gun-shy about how they answer questions pertaining to the topic. I had no idea this topic would reach such a fever. I honestly had no intentions for that to happen. Now however it makes me wonder, based on (if they knew) who I am and what background and experince I have, how they would ultimately answer or handle this topic. Are they concerned that I may be a tour pro, ex-tour pro, old friend and competitor, competitor, recognized golf instructor/teacher/swing coach, with a club manufactuer, a shaft company, etc., etc. Would their answer be any different based on who I am or what my background and experience is? Would they just brush me off if I was just an everyday hacker. Interesting to think about... Even more interesting is to see how they deal with this topic with you ABS students. My suggestion is to politely ask challenging questions and if things don't make sense to you - check and verify the best you can. Also, be cognizant that enthusiasm and agreement from surrounding others doesn't necessarily mean it's right.
"Reverse every natural instinct and do the opposite of what you are inclined to do, and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing." Ben Hogan
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Re: Lag's Personal Equipment Specifications

Postby Go Low » Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:53 pm

twomasters wrote:
Go Low wrote:
How can doing something (i.e. re-accelerating the clubshaft) AFTER the fact (impact) correct anything or be beneficial?


Because that is EXACTLY what golfers already try to do who flip the face or throw the head off to the right or quick hand release the club left do.......they are trying to re-intensify all their power loss from accelerating too fast too soon with their hands somewhere before impact (normally at transition)....hence the club tries to then again speed up at some point and gets thrown off course in the process....

It's ALL about intention and at ABS we have a better more specific intention than using our hands to try and recreate the speed a golfer wants to feel after impact.....why not do it right if you are going to do it at all......are we still hitting a brick wall here GoLow?

...do we want to swing a feather or a telegraph pole? (hypothetically speaking)...which one is going to allow us more mass and more clubface control by using the correct parts of the body in sequence at transition and then firing at impact and beyond.

If you think after impact doesn't mean anything (as stated above) then you will be on the merry go round of golf for eternity searching and hoping till death do us part


So is this ONLY an INTENTION teaching message? Does Lag agree? It's not something you really expect to do or to accomplish, but an INTENTION. Is that the case also with my #1 & #2 question?
"Reverse every natural instinct and do the opposite of what you are inclined to do, and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing." Ben Hogan
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Re: Lag's Personal Equipment Specifications

Postby lagpressure » Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:33 pm

Go low,

You for some reason seem hell bent on this idea of holding shaft flex as being the end of all ends as far as this discussion.
You have asked me if it is possible? Yes it is possible... and this means that I have my choice of methods to do so.. even if I want to use a 100 pound golf club. So therefore YES!! it is possible.

Have others done it? Austin and Johnny Miller say yes.. however, if you want hard scientific evidence, you will be left to your own devices on that one. Call Johnny.

Can I do it... come measure me.

At ABS, is this an intention? absolutely. Why, for all the reasons I have previously stated over and over again. Mainly, better ball compression for any given swing speed, and more feel in the hands of the player.

As far as why the shaft would best be held flexed? Well, the more stress you put on the steel, the stiffer that shaft becomes, therefore the less give there will be in the shaft, therefore the more energy will be transferred into the golf ball. Simple really. Tangential combined with Radial acceleration adds a toughness to the shaft, which simply stabilizes the clubhead during the impact interval.

You want to throw a limp released shaft into impact? You do that.. not me. 8-)

From what you write about.. you very much sound like you favor a swinger's protocol. Good for you. There have been many great players that have been swingers. But I would argue that the very best strikers of all time gravitated to hitting.
Hogan, Knudson, Trevino, and I would say Tiger with his irons. Greg Norman, Peter Senior, even Mac O Grady. Many others, De Vicenzo, Player....on and on..

I have played high level golf using both protocols.. from my own experience... hitting hands down.. I would never ever go back knowing what I know now. NEVER!!!

This is why, in my opinion, the style or kind of golf club (old blades and persimmon versus the most game improvement clubs) is not all that important to learning an efficient and effective golf swing.


I would completely disagree with you here. The golf swing is going to evolve from the gear you are introduced to. Upright light gear is going to teach an independent arm travel style golf swing. This is not consistent with the games greatest strikers. If you like it, good for you. I think it's garbage. The brain also needs the best feedback possible for improvement to be as quick as possible. Persimmon offers superior feedback to the frying pans. Debating this is futile.

I think it's extremely important (almost imperative) for the teacher and student to be physically with each other (in-person) for a real-time hands-on, quick exchange of verbal communication,


Students swing flaws are so obvious to me on video, it take me about 2 to 3 seconds to see it. I make notes, send my redirection to the student. Give them a detailed description of what they need to work on and feel, and we work on building a proper golf swing from impact, ground pressures, swing plane through impact, post impact pivot acceleration, transition, hand attitudes, aiming concepts, proper applications of levers and their understanding, drawing and fading in a much more advanced methodology than is traditionally taught, and ultimately how to play golf. If students want personal instruction, I offer that as well. However, I have no need to watch a student hack through a bucket of balls on a driving range with them wanting instant Karma. To each their own.
it's because everybody is different and there are many ways (physically and innately/naturally/inherently/instinctively) each of us use our bodies in different ways to achieve a good outcome.


No two of my students swing the same. However, we all work toward similar intentions. Module #4 sets everything straight, and gives students clarity into their own strength and weaknesses. It show their progress, and what they are going to be working toward in their own unique way. There is no way you are going to fully understand ABS unless you go through the course. This is not an intellectual pursuit only. This is golf swing biomechanical bootcamp. It takes time and hard work just like anything.

If you look at say Olympic figure skaters, even though there are many different body types, from tall Europeans to petite Asians, they can all learn and master certain core elements of athleticism and exacting form. They are strictly graded, yet there is still room for their individualism to shine through. Golf is no different. If you want to master striking a golf ball, as much as you may like the idea of "everyone doing it their own thing" it just doesn't work that way.. sorry.. you can't break the laws of good physics and master the art of fine ball striking. Good luck on that one. Golf swings look different because of differing setups, backswings and finishing positions.. but unfortunately you don't hit the ball on the backswing.
What good or benefit would come from re-accelerating the clubhead after impact in the event the clubhead decelerated?

So you can win the game of good ball striking. If you want to stall or quit the pivot, go right ahead.
If an auto racer bumped the car ahead of them (decelerating).. should they just pull off the track and quit the race because they had a moment of deceleration? Same logic applies in the golf swing.. you must keep pushing forward to the finish line to give yourself the best chance at a win or have a good finish.
Once the golf ball has left the clubface any energy not used is wasted energy.


Ok, that is your opinion.. it's a real hang up for a lot of people, especially swingers. It makes no sense logically to you, I understand.. but from my experience, your logic makes no sense to me. In your view, your wrists should act as passive hinges that do nothing to support the pressures and forces of impact. The pivot should simply stall at the moment of impact, your body should shrivel like a limp towel right at the moment of impact, in fact, you might as well let go of the club with your grip because post impact anything means nothing because the ball is already gone. There should be no cohesive tension in the body, you should feel relaxed, no connection, and swinging into any kind of finish ideal would have zero impact on the golf ball.

Good luck with your method.
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Re: Lag's Personal Equipment Specifications

Postby TeddyIrons » Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:50 am

Go Low wrote:I find it rather amusing that Lag and Twomasters want to know my background and experience. It appears they are a little gun-shy about how they answer questions pertaining to the topic. I had no idea this topic would reach such a fever. I honestly had no intentions for that to happen. Now however it makes me wonder, based on (if they knew) who I am and what background and experince I have, how they would ultimately answer or handle this topic. Are they concerned that I may be a tour pro, ex-tour pro, old friend and competitor, competitor, recognized golf instructor/teacher/swing coach, with a club manufactuer, a shaft company, etc., etc. Would their answer be any different based on who I am or what my background and experience is? Would they just brush me off if I was just an everyday hacker. Interesting to think about... Even more interesting is to see how they deal with this topic with you ABS students. My suggestion is to politely ask challenging questions and if things don't make sense to you - check and verify the best you can. Also, be cognizant that enthusiasm and agreement from surrounding others doesn't necessarily mean it's right.

We ask challenging questions all the time, Go low, and we are never disappointed. Anyone following the modules will have had hundreds of questions answered just by listening to Lag explaining what our intentions must be. At times some of these intentions disagree with our long held beliefs and it may take time for us to fully accept them; not until we do accept them do we really start to get it. I'm aware that the ideas of what you do after impact may seem inconsequential to those not following the ABS course, but for those of us doing the course, especially those that have advanced through a lot of modules, we get it, we really do. I always have a chuckle to myself when I read that it doesn't matter what you do after impact, or that it's better to play with game improvement equipment. The more that people think that, the better, IMO! But we're not cracking a whip here - we are driving through right to the finish and it's amazing how that squares the club face compared to timing the whip. I'm of a hacker background myself and I play with hackers. I can tell you that the game improvement equipment they are using is not helping them get the ball in the air, or for those that do get it in the air, it's not helping them hit fairways and greens. It didn't take long for me to be convinced that game improvement equipment is actually damaging, especially the frying pan drivers. Those who can hit it a bit end up hitting it all over the place. The ball stars off hard and high and you can't tell whether it's going to swerve left or right in fact at first you think it looks OK and then suddenly it's off and never to be seen again, like a hot air balloon. People are buying a new driver every year hoping to gain something. They are trying to buy a game but they're not finding it.

I've seen these discussions before with people who use observation and logic to explain away the golf swing without understanding what's going on underneath, what is cause and what is effect. If you look up Jeff Mann's website - he has spent years studying the swing, mostly from an observational point of view, and he similarly doesn't understand or agree with post impact pivot thrust. Seeing as we don't know anything about your background, then it's not really possible to understand what you feel in the swing, or what intentions you have. You may laugh at it but your background is important in understanding something about why you believe what you do.
You must work very hard to become a natural golfer ~~ Gary Player
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Re: Lag's Personal Equipment Specifications

Postby twomasters » Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:53 am

GoLow
Did we ever make comment about NRG's post a few pages back where one of your faves (you have mentioned him and his swing before) Mike Austin claimed he was faster after impact than before or at impact?

No...just skimmed all over that one on your one track path
The swing is a sequence of events......you have intent all throughout....that's what makes things happen....

If you don't want to say who you are or your background then what you say holds little bearing because you scream 'scientific minded' and have no actual playing experience....kinda like this

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Re: Lag's Personal Equipment Specifications

Postby Range Rat » Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:58 am

:lol: :lol: Yep.....priceless
You're ahead of where you were, and behind where you're going.
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Re: Lag's Personal Equipment Specifications

Postby NRG » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:44 am

There is one man here who can do as Austin and Miller claim, a man with huge wrist and forearm strength, a man who wears his underpants on the outside of his leotard.

Will The Captain please step forward.
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Re: Lag's Personal Equipment Specifications

Postby 1teebox » Tue Dec 28, 2010 10:12 am

Go Low wrote: "I find it rather amusing that Lag and Twomasters want to know my background and experience. It appears they are a little gun-shy about how they answer questions pertaining to the topic. I had no idea this topic would reach such a fever. I honestly had no intentions for that to happen. Now however it makes me wonder, based on (if they knew) who I am and what background and experince I have, how they would ultimately answer or handle this topic. Are they concerned that I may be a tour pro, ex-tour pro, old friend and competitor, competitor, recognized golf instructor/teacher/swing coach, with a club manufactuer, a shaft company, etc., etc. Would their answer be any different based on who I am or what my background and experience is? Would they just brush me off if I was just an everyday hacker. Interesting to think about... Even more interesting is to see how they deal with this topic with you ABS students. My suggestion is to politely ask challenging questions and if things don't make sense to you - check and verify the best you can. Also, be cognizant that enthusiasm and agreement from surrounding others doesn't necessarily mean it's right."

Go Low,

We are flawed and we have failed to satisfy your questions according to your analysis. Until you have evidence supporting Lag and Two's assertions obtained from some source you approve of, it appears you will continue to disagree with them and wonder about the intent and integrity of their responses.

Thank you for advising us to think independently. There is evidence we strive for that routinely. For example, we question the assertion that it is neither possible nor purposeful to increase club head acceleration beyond impact. Many of us are also guilty of finding satisfaction in a society of friends finding ways to agree and disagree, preferably without condescension, on various topics as we work our way through argument and discussions, scientific and otherwise, toward learning more about the golf swing irrespective of our status as hackers or accomplished players or background. This community grows in large part I suspect because Lag and Two do not brush off sincere people.
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Re: Lag's Personal Equipment Specifications

Postby CaptainChaos » Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:13 pm

NRG wrote:There is one man here who can do as Austin and Miller claim, a man with huge wrist and forearm strength, a man who wears his underpants on the outside of his leotard.

Will The Captain please step forward.


[stepping forward]

Yes, I can do it one-handed...either side. A display that invokes pure and raw physical power...coupled with a mindset honed with the mental calisthenics of modules and a sharpened timing with repeated abuse of an impact bag! A new breed of golfing demi-god created with the knowledge when one mortal (Lag) darted from the shadows to pick up the flame left by Titans! ;)

Alas, I am no longer alone as could be demonstrated by any of Us who have graduated past module 3! [bowing head in acknowledgment of my ABS brothers and sisters]

GoLow - I responded to your first query by asking you to read more of the threads and wondered if there was a language barrier (as we have more than a few here where English is not their first language...admittedly, they probably have a better grasp than me ;) ). There was a reason for this - you seemed naive in both your knowledge/etiquette of forums and of what ABS' major tenets are. Trust me...any other place on the 'net and you would have been castigated for that alone. Not here though...this is a very special place.

You ask some pretty base/fundamental questions (all explained elsewhere in detail) and have received a myriad of varied and well thought out responses from everyone. Not one person (I might add) has asked you to change your view, ridiculed your stance, or even given up in exasperation. Perhaps its time to say "we agree to disagree" as your failure to reciprocate with some questioning borders on trolling and your stubborn stance now reduced to attacking the syntax of a couple of words plucked from well-meaning expositions is tedious at best.

Sincerely,
Captain Chaos

p.s. Well stated 1teebox - unfortunately there isn't an emoticon that displays "hugely snarky/sarcastic".
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