How do your equipment specs vary from Lag's?

How do your equipment specs vary from Lag's?

Postby k2baloo » Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:47 pm

I have seen Lag's equipment specs, but was wondering what other people have done that they like.
For instance I am 6'3 and I now set up my pw at about 4 degrees flat but my long irons are maybe a degree flat, so the average change in life angles between clubs is less that the standard half degree.
Also I like to get the irons bent weak. I don't minda little extra bounce and it works some offset out of the set.
Now I am not an abs student so that may be why my preferences vary from Lag's, maybe the rest of you just play the same specs as him. But whoever had found other set up ideas that worked I would love to hear them
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Re: How do your equipment specs vary from Lag's?

Postby NRG » Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:32 am

Here are my specs.

NRG_specs.png
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Re: How do your equipment specs vary from Lag's?

Postby k2baloo » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:11 pm

NRG wrote:Here are my specs.

NRG_specs.png


Thanks for the post. I have a 975r driver I meant to re shaft but never got to it. Why only 12 clubs? Would an extra wedge or long Club not help?
Also has that progression of the moi been helpful to you? I have yet to know the moi of my clubs. Is it worth getting that checked and having the set matched up? I am just curious because I only have been concerned with sw.
Thanks in advance for any info
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Re: How do your equipment specs vary from Lag's?

Postby NRG » Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:33 am

I used to carry a gap wedge and a 2 iron, but I hardly ever used them so just left them out to keep the weight of the bag down.

I like MOI matching, but its possibly just a placebo. I like having the lower MOI in the driver cause I think you have more chance of doing a CP release with a lower MOI, I think most 11oz frying pans are up around 2900 because of the 46" length, so mine is just 42".
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Re: How do your equipment specs vary from Lag's?

Postby NRG » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:11 pm

I've been asked why I don't play my Titanium driver as flat as my persimmon driver - 55 degrees v 48.

When the club is in motion (or at least when the shaft releases) the shaft is not straight as the shaft tries it's best to line up with the clubheads centre of gravity. Resulting in toe dip.

The COG gets further away from the shaft as the clubhead size increases, so the toe dip also increases. Smaller hosels etc move the COG further away too.

Toe_dip.png
Toe_dip.png (579.28 KiB) Viewed 4017 times


Bigger heads get more toe dip than smaller heads due to the COG being further above the shaft line so need to be set up more upright.

So I don't recommend getting Titaniums drivers flattened any more than about 52 or 53. 55 is fine.
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Re: How do your equipment specs vary from Lag's?

Postby k2baloo » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:27 am

NRG,
I also noticed your 42 inch driver is on the lighter side.
Could a low MOI still be achieved if a heavier driver was back weighted quite a bit?
Thanks
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Re: How do your equipment specs vary from Lag's?

Postby NRG » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:42 am

It's about an ounce heavier than a modern driver. I didn't decide to make it like that, just kept cutting it down and adding weight till it felt about right. Will no doubt tweak it again soon.

Shaft length really effects MOI. Long shafts will have a much higher MOI. Adding weight under the grip will not reduce MOI, it will add a small amount, but no where near as much as on the head. MOI doesn't work the same as a swing weight.
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Re: How do your equipment specs vary from Lag's?

Postby 20 Mule Team » Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:55 am

I've got one set of Hogan's, the 1967 PC7's, that I took apart and reassembled with matching MOI's. It's a subtle difference, but they do seem to 'heft' very consistently from club to club. It basically amounts to a progressive swingweight, imo. IIRC my clubs go from a D2 in the 2 iron up to D7 in the wedge...which suits me fine -- slightly heavier short irons, slightly lighter long irons. Great irons, btw.

If you disassemble the clubs and weigh each of the components separately, its very straightforward to match, no need for an expensive machine. I used the formula from Tutleman's site, http://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/swingwt1.php.

As for loft/length/lie, I like the 1950's specs where the 2 iron starts off at 20* and 38.5". Because my irons are an 1" shorter than Lag's specs, I adjusted the lie angle up 2*, so my 2 iron is 55*. Irons spec'ed this way (shorter, weaker, flatter, and heavier) REALLY give you more control of your ball. Now, it costs you a little distance per club number, if you're the sort that measures himself that way, but it also has some cool benefits. The other week I was playing against some friends with their modern clubs. We're on the tee of a par 3, two guys have their rangefinders out (a practice I despise) arguing whether the number is 153 or 156. I grabbed a club and knocked it 10' from the flag. They want to know what I hit, I say "a full 5 iron."
"Huh? I was thinking 8 iron..." And out come the rangefinders again, lol. One of them got so worried about it that he skulled his shot over the green. :)

Another thing I like about this setup is that it results in a pw of 52* which -- surprise surprise -- makes it great for pitching! Modern pitching wedges (43-45*) are useless for anything around the green save chipping...because they're actually an 8 iron.

As for my persimmon setup, I like a 43" driver and then because there is only a 3* difference in loft between the 3 and 4 woods, I like a full inch of length difference. This seems to gap them better. It also leaves a more manageable gap between the 4 wood and the 2 iron.

This is a very interesting topic to me. When I look in the modern bags of guys I play with I rarely see any kind of cohesive plan regarding set makeup. Nobody plays with wood sets anymore, it seems. As an example, one of the guys I play with has a 45.5" driver with a superlight graphite shaft, then a 3W thats three inches shorter and has a different, heavier, graphite shaft. Then a 3 hybrid, graphite shafted, that's 1.5" longer than his steel shafted 4 iron (all of these clubs are different makes and models). He told he he can't hit his 3 iron, and that his 4 and 5 irons go basically the same distance. I looked his club specs up later, and found his 3 iron is basically a 1 iron (18*, traditionally the 1 iron is 17*) and his 4 and 5 irons only have 2* separation. He told me his pitching wedge goes 145 yards (looked it up, its 45*) while his first gap wedge (not matching) is 52* and only goes 125 yards. I asked him what he does when he's 135 yards out? "Well, it's a problem." He has four wedges in his bag, none of them the same make and model. And this guy is a 8 handicap or so, not a hack.

One last note, when I first showed up with the vintage clubs last fall, the first thing this guy says to me is, "Well, either you think you're so badass that you can beat me with 50 year old junk, or you've just given up on beating me." At the time I had to admit that it was the latter. Now, after 9 months of playing and practicing with the classics, I can beat him as long as my putter doesn't balk. Despite the fact that he routinely outdrives me by 30-50 yards I can count on him losing at least 3-4 drives per round and making at least double. Meanwhile, I dink and dunk right down the middle with my persimmons and blades. The last time we played he only hit 7 fairways. I hit 11, with one miss in a lake but the other two in the first cut and with unobstructed approach shots.

Even when he hits the fairway, he's still in the "kill kill kill" mode. If he's 120 yards out he's hitting a SW and swinging as hard as he can. Meanwhile I'm at 150-165 and hitting a 5 or even 4 iron, making the same swing I make with every club in the bag, and consistently hitting more greens. It kills him, too. Lol. On another hole, a long par 3 (210 uphill) I pulled a 3 wood and took a short, controlled swing, landing the ball in the middle of the green and rolling it to the back fringe. He commented, "You only swung to here," indicating about nine o'clock with his left arm. Another guy said, "Yeah, he's been doing that all day." Neither of them meant it as a compliment. I just smiled. This is one of the key lessons I took from the epic Lag's Golfing Machine thread -- maximum shoulder turn with minimal hand travel.

I guess the point I'd like to make is, we have all been brainwashed in the last 20 years by the OEMs into thinking golf is only about 'distance, distance, distance.' While distance has always been an advantage, the game was not designed around it. I'm really glad people like Lag are standing up and teaching something more substantive...I just hope none of my playing partners find out about it, ha!
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Re: How do your equipment specs vary from Lag's?

Postby norcalvol » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:58 am

I asked him what he does when he's 135 yards out? "Well, it's a problem."


I had the exact same conversation just over a week ago with a person who was hitting his PW 150 yards. I could tell he had never really thought about the effect that having irons that he could hit to the next county has on his ability to control distance for shots within the 90-120 yard range (because I imagine, like for many other people, that was his immediate goal).

Because my irons are an 1" shorter than Lag's specs, I adjusted the lie angle up 2*, so my 2 iron is 55*.


I've often wondered about this. I derived a hypothesis that says for a given set of clubs, lie angles should match to the club length, not to the club number. So, if a set of specs for lie angle (e.g., Lag's) call for a lie angle of 53* for a 3 iron of 39.0" in length, but my 2 iron is of 39.0" in length, then my 2 iron should have a lie angle of 53* because of its length, independent of the club number.

Is this your thought, too?

Having said that, I'm not sure that I would be able to feel the 1* difference in lie angle. But it certainly is an interesting topic.
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Re: How do your equipment specs vary from Lag's?

Postby 20 Mule Team » Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:41 am

norcalval, I think you're exactly right. Lots of potential confusion out there about lie angle, but the baseline always has to be lie angle per club length, not loft or number on the bottom. The rule of thumb being that lie angle should adjust 1* for each 1/2" of length.

It always amazes me when people say, "I can't hit those old irons, they're too short for me."

Really? You can't hit an old 5 iron (37") because it's too short? How do you hit your modern 9 iron (36") then?

The answer, of course, is the lie angle. What they're really saying is, "These clubs are too flat for me."

It's kind of when they say, "These clubs suck, I lose 20 yards when I play them!" You can explain to them all day long about the loft differential, but they are SO CONDITIONED TO EQUATE DISTANCE = QUALITY by the OEMs that they can't even consider what you're saying, they've already moved on.

On the other hand, an educated opponent is a lot harder to defeat. :)
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