Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby mrlek » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:43 pm

The reason I asked about swing weight on heavier clubs is that I had a Titleist 980f fitted with steel the other day. Its now quite a heavy club but with a slightly heavier grip it feels well balanced. As an after thought the club fitter gave me the swing weight reading of D1. I just wondered if the overall 'feel' of balance with a heavier club could be explained in terms swing weight.
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby IanB » Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:54 am

Mrlek,

Can you explain more how this is so.

If you are square in all three axis and using a lens length long enough to avoid distortion then how can the club appear 4.5 degrees flatter than it is?


Also if it is possible to obtain such an obtuse error then all these people doing video analysis are deriving theories based on grossly inaccurate data?

I can take a pic with the camera I use for my module filming of a 60 degree set square……….measure the angle with my analysis tool on my drawing software …….and its 60 degrees!

Confused
There is DO and there is DO NOT. There is no TRY.
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby k2baloo » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:51 am

IanB,
I think you and mrlek are more or less saying the same thing. He just observed that when you take the picture from slightly above the club that the lie angle appears flatter. You are saying that if everything is set up right the angles would be preserved.
I think we all understand how angles can be measured poorly from pictures, but if the picture is set up perfect then it should be an accurate reading.
As far as drawing a bunch of lines in swing analysis, I was never a big fan of it for this reason and some others. But if you set up the camera just right in relation to your or somebody else's setup every time there could be some utility to it.
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby mrlek » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:29 am

Imo the shadow, lighting and angle in the photo suggest that the camera is looking slightly down on the club and not level with the point of measurement.

The only way to check this 100% is measure the club. 55.5 is the number so the picture looks to be distorted as I described, this is only possible to say now with the wonder of hindsight and the actual number.

Im not having a pop at swing theories but Im interested in factual data. If we want to conclude that the 1 Iron is unreliable as it may have been altered then so be it.

It also doesn't mean that the old greats were not swinging flatter, clearly they were and the video analysis is correct on that. It's interesting to try to establish their actual specs if at all possible though.

If Mr Hogan actually swung flat with this club as is, we can learn something more about his setup. If its not considered reliable data, the speculation continues...
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby mrlek » Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:02 am

Im wondering if this arched wrist setup discussed by Jackie Burke and Steve Elkington may have a bearing on the lie angle for some of the great players of that era. There are others on this forum better qualified that can hopefully provide the proper analysis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6fbpagqG_I

This excerpt from a 50's article by Jay Hebert on "The Power Position" also discusses the subject:

"A low handicap player….holds his hands high and to the front. How high? Well high enough so that there aren't any wrinkles on the tops of his wrists. And far enough upfront so that a reasonably straight line is formed between his left elbow, his left wrist and the shaft of the driver.

This latter position is known on the circuit as the power position. In this position, you have your hands up there where they can do some business - you have them positioned in such a way that they automatically fall into the proper slot at the top of the backswing, from which slot you will unleash your natural power. By keeping the hands low and toward the rear at the address, however, you are forcing yourself to make your hands swim during the course of the backswing. As a result, they can only find the proper slot by chance - if at all".
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby nfbandon » Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:11 am

The arched wrist position at address is something that has always mystified me with Hogan. We know his arms were long and we know his gear was flat, both of which belie high hands at address. He could always have the heel a bit in the air at address, but it doesn't look that way.
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby k2baloo » Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:36 am

I agree that his wrist position is very hard to understand. Any insight on that would be helpful
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby lagpressure » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:20 am

Most players come into impact with their hands higher than at address. Most players have the toe of the club slightly up in relation to the ground.

Hogan was one of the few players who's hands would come in lower into impact than they were at address. So it only makes sense that he had the heel slightly up at address. It would be hard to see, especially because grass was not mowed as close in his era. If I had to guess it would be 2 to 4 degrees difference.

The higher hands at address moving into lower at impact is consistent with what I call a heel heavy divot sensation through the strike, and it also promotes a looping action to the inside through transition.

One advantage to setting up this way would be that the player would be forced to slot it back lower through transition and the downswing, and if you read Hogan's 5 Lessons, it would be consistent with the tilted plane of glass mentioned in the book.

I don't think it's a big mystery. Just set up with your hands high, then come in with them low. You'll feel what I am talking about here.
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby lagpressure » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:43 pm

John_Erickson_1_iron.jpg
John_Erickson_1_iron.jpg (246.07 KiB) Viewed 2046 times


Here is a pic of my personal 1 iron that I have set up at 52 degree lie angle. I just re checked in on my machine.
Taking my camera from what would comfortably fit into the camera lens, about 2 and a half feet back it seems the discrepancy might be
about 1 degree. In my photo, it appears my club is actually the opposite, meaning the photo suggests it's a degree more upright than it actually is.

Hogan's 1 iron appears to be flatter than mine, as I would have speculated. I think the camera angle of that club is good. Nothing looks odd or suspicious to me. Could be some distortion. Hogan's 1 iron might be a degree or so different and possibly even flatter than this pic suggests...but not 6 degrees different I would not think.

While it's speculation, my club is not speculation and appears to be consistent with Hogan's clubs being similarly flat to what I play.
I have calibrated my machine and it is accurate to less than 1 degree.
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby mrlek » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:37 pm

Lag,
There is an indication in the photo that the club is sitting back on the sole as the pin is visibly left of centre.

If you hold a pinned club square on the leading edge from a square on position and then let it sit back on the negative bounce, the shaft angle appears to flatten from a square on view.

There would appear to be some room for photographic distortion in this way .
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