Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby lagpressure » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:53 pm

If the clubface sat slightly open, it would make the pin appear to be more to the left, but that would not necessarily change the lie angle from a camera view. If you rolled the shaft clockwise or open... that could be all it is. I don't think the club looks back on the sole. Just my opinion. I say this because many of the earlier Hogan releases had shaved toes. Just take a look at the Power Thrusts. I just looked at a set I have out back, and that is how they look. The other thing is that the drill holes on many vintage irons are not always that dead accurate as far as being bored at a perfect 90 degree angle to the clubface.

Good observations though. Again, a lot of speculation, but I think that photo looks to be pretty accurate. I would tend to trust that more than what someone said in a letter, email or over the phone.
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby mrlek » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:26 pm

Its open to interpretation. Ive looked at an early 50's Tourney 2 Iron a moment ago and held it flat on the table against a protractor.

When the club rocks back to a pin position that looks like the photo, its only a very small move back, but the change in appearance of shaft angle is considerable - I'd say easily 4 degrees by eye. The pins are also perfectly centred in my set, possibly because they are the top-line model. I'd expect a similar result on Power Thrusts as they have very sharp leading edges.

Personally I don't doubt the USGA Measurement taking the above into consideration but I respect your opinion. Perhaps someone should ask for the club to be re-checked - but its not gonna me !
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby lagpressure » Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:57 am

Didn't this 1 iron disappear or was stolen? Then later it turned up and returned to Hogan?.. that's what I had heard. Mike our club guy here also mentioned that to me today. If the club was in the possession of someone else, it would not be a stretch that they would bend it up to their specs so they could hit it. Wouldn't you want to hit it? The magic club?

One could argue that the club in the photo is not the exact club. I don't remember the source. Maybe from the museum site at one time? Maybe it is just the model he was using at the time?

Certainly more interesting than some of the murder mystery theater dinners I have attended.
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby mrlek » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:08 am

ha ha, yeah possibly as case for Jim Rockford to investigate.

Just noticed that the story of the club is related on the USGA Museum website

http://usgamuseum.com/about_museum/news_events/news_article.aspx?newsid=114

Whats interesting is that it was supposedly found in a set of irons and not matching them. It sounds quite likely then, that it was played and could have been adjusted. While I believe the lie measurement is correct at 55.5, the club isn't sufficiently reliable for analysis of Mr Hogan's club setup based on the story of its journey.

It would definitely be interesting to learn the spec on a personal model persimmon.
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby IanB » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:26 am

If you could freeze a video frame of rocco mediate holding Hogans driver up to the camera in a square position it may be possible to derive some data ……………at least an interesting experiment :ugeek:
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby Range Rat » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:12 pm

lagpressure wrote:Most players come into impact with their hands higher than at address. Most players have the toe of the club slightly up in relation to the ground.

Hogan was one of the few players who's hands would come in lower into impact than they were at address. So it only makes sense that he had the heel slightly up at address. It would be hard to see, especially because grass was not mowed as close in his era. If I had to guess it would be 2 to 4 degrees difference.

The higher hands at address moving into lower at impact is consistent with what I call a heel heavy divot sensation.


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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby mrlek » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:37 am

Hogan was one of the few players who's hands would come in lower into impact than they were at address. So it only makes sense that he had the heel slightly up at address. It would be hard to see, especially because grass was not mowed as close in his era. If I had to guess it would be 2 to 4 degrees difference.

The higher hands at address moving into lower at impact is consistent with what I call a heel heavy divot sensation through the strike, and it also promotes a looping action to the inside through transition.


Lag, I'm trying to understand how this action worked. It looks to me like Mr Hogan was very precise in slotting the shaft into the exact same position at the moment of impact as at address (I've not had time to study this extensively on multiple swing footage).
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby mrlek » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:50 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma84i1Ok3I0

Looking at this analysis by Wayne Defrancesco. It's obviously one dimensional but at the moment of impact the shaft angle matches the setup.

The difference in the two positions is that the hands are slightly further down the line at impact due to shaft lean and de-lofting.

From a dynamic perspective I'm not sure what to make of it ? assuming the face is square at impact, perhaps the de-lofting is what creates the effect of a flatter entry?
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby lagpressure » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:27 am

Hogan_Flat.gif
Hogan_Flat.gif (109.15 KiB) Viewed 2255 times


Hogan_lines.gif
Hogan_lines.gif (108.64 KiB) Viewed 2247 times


I like this angle for viewing swing plane because the plane of the shaft through impact being inclined would dissect the body about at belt level then move behind us.. so to properly set up a camera for correct analysis if sitting up and off the ground as it typically is, then the camera should really NOT be placed above the ground straight back on the flight line, but instead it should be placed more toward the heels if it is about 3 feet above the ground. This may not be perfect, but it's close...

So clearly here, Hogan's hands come in lower than they were at address. I was careful making this gif to line up the crop right on his right shoe. You can see a streak in the film that moves laterally, but his feet don't.

Depending upon camera angles.. you will see some footage where his hands come in about the same, and some that come in lower. Hard to find any other players who's hands come in lower... ever.

When I have time, I'll see if I can dig up some of the older footage I used to study that really showed his hands coming in lower, even from a more typical DTL view.
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby mdrretired » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:37 pm

A short story --- In the mid 1980s I was stationed at Ft. Eustis VA. and knew a fellow named Bob Farino who owned American Golf. Bob was a repairman, collector and was well connected in the golf world and sold internationally, especially to Japan. While visiting one day he asked me if I wanted to see Hogan's famed 1 iron and naturally I did. If memory serves it was supposedly stolen or misplaced and Bob somehow obtained it and was suspicious that it might be THE club. Bob told me that he had verified ownership by Mr. Hogan. He graciously returned it to either Mr. Hogan or to the golf course that had his clubs (not sure). I took the story at face value and it may or may not be true but the club sure looked like Hogan's. I can't recall if it was a green shafted model or chrome. Mr. Farino wrote a definitive book on classic golf clubs that is informative but hard to locate.
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