Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby mdrretired » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:44 pm

As a follow up to my previous post I found this link that provides details about the famous 1 iron: http://www.usgamuseum.com/about_museum/ ... newsid=114

The article jibes with my recollection. Hard to imagine that I held the club and too bad that I did not measure it but who Knew???
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby norcalvol » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:51 pm

Mr. Farino wrote a definitive book on classic golf clubs that is informative but hard to locate.

http://www.amazon.com/Golf-Collectors-H ... B000KIP6CY
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby mrlek » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:44 pm

Should imagine American Golf was a good business back in those days at the height of classic persimmon and the huge demand from Japan.

I found some old pallets of second hand clubs in a scrap yard a while back that had been shipped out from Japan. Lots of older Macgregors and Hogan's but not complete sets. A few nice persimmons, some in decay such as a rotted M85. It was like Christmas come early hunting through thousands of clubs for old wedges, putters etc - great fun ! Found a split sole 10 iron that Lag uses among many others.
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby mrlek » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:59 pm

Lag, thanks for the images and analysis, any additional info would be really interesting. I want to believe the clubs were flatter and if convinced, will certainly make the adjustments for further study. Hopefully this discussion is helpful to other readers too.

My current thoughts are that Mr Hogan's irons would be in a horizontal lie at setup with the high hands, then be able to return the same horizontal lie at impact due to de-lofting and his relative hands / body positioning through the hitting area.

From the player's eye view this is a flatter entry and the club is layed off from the top as it returns inside - but from the rear square to ball camera view, the actual shaft 'angle' matches the setup and this could be of relevance. The hands are slightly lower but seam to maintain the original set-up angle.

If other players are less controlled in this area then perhaps it partly explains Mr Hogan's superior consistency. It could also mean that his lie angles were not super flat but standard for the day (flat by modern standards). just a theory.

Lord Byron's swing would be another good study to see if the shaft angles match up in this way since he was renowned for hitting consistantly straight shots with an obvious lowering of the body through the hitting area. Not easy to find still camera footage of these swings from the desired angles though…perhaps the ABS vault contains some gems !
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby mrlek » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:19 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfSonOaJtv0

Here's the equivalent video on Byron Nelson from what looks to be down the ball / target line view. If you're quick on the draw with the pause button, it looks like the shaft angles match at set-up vs impact.
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby paradigm_shift » Tue May 23, 2017 9:31 am

lagpressure wrote:I don't teach students to play 8 degrees flat. They can play whatever they like. I play 6 down because it's advantageous to do so. I'm 6-0 and it's not a problem. I would go flatter if I was 5-6.

As far as Hogan, his clubs look flat on any films I have seen... but I have never held his clubs, and even if I had,
who can account for what has been done to them over the decades?

I've have held Moe Norman's clubs, so I can speak with direct and personal knowledge of those. Sam Randolph played 4 down in his prime striking days. I have direct knowledge on those also.

Unless you held the clubs while the person was alive and next to you, and could confirm they had not been altered, it's speculation... for you, me, or anyone else.

I don't teach Hogan's golf swing... but I certainly like what he did through the strike.

As far as Wishon, I probably have the email somewhere, but I changed email addresses last year and lost access to some stuff.




Lag do you play 6 degrees flat off your M85 Irons ?
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby lagpressure » Fri May 26, 2017 3:46 pm

All my irons are set up 6 down, even my woods.
Most people think that lie angle should simply be height or arm length specific, but I would argue that the flatter you can get your lie angles the better... to a point.

Accuracy problems stem for controlling the rotation of the shaft down it's vertical axis as well as swing path. Flatter lie angles benefit both of these issues significantly giving a player an clear cut advantage over those who play more upright gear.

The only downsides of flattening out irons would be hitting out of deep rough (which you won't be in as often) and flatter irons are harder to control the trajectory of the shot (we have different lofted clubs in our bag to take care of this issue.)
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby Stu Carlburger » Fri May 26, 2017 8:41 pm

Lag,
Maybe this is best discussed in another thread but I've been building a new set of irons and I've really been diving into shaft length, and more specifically how it relates to lie angle. Obviously, we know that as the shaft changes in length so to does the lie. When I pick up any club "off the rack" I immediately notice that there way too upright -- understandable given ABS methodologies. However, as the hitter's protocols have sunk in more and more, I've also begun to feel that most clubs -- even clubs that I've had flattened significantly -- feel too long, like I'm being jammed up as my ABS intentions improve and strengthen.

So my thought on this new set is to bring the lengths down almost 1 inch. I got this measurement by taking a club with a flattened lie angle, soleing it, letting my arms hang from my shoulders in a good address posture, and then stepping into the club. In doing so observed that my hand met the club almost 1 inch "choked down" and even more so with a "standard" lie angle iron. It got me thinking about the One Length rabbit hole (again) and reading how many Internet golf bloggers/teachers seem to agree that most clubs are too long for most players. It got me thinking more about the relationship between length and lie, and when building this set shorter I noticed I won't really need too much lie adjustment.

One blogger said something that stood out to me, he said "Notice that tour players look “big” compared to their clubs. Even with a longer iron, say a 4-iron, they seem to be standing “on top” of the ball, meaning the ball is not too far from their feet ..." I know "distance from the ball" or "reaching" is one of my major faults that I've worked hard to eliminate -- hence the "jammed up" feeling where my arms feel bent and if I straighten them out I feel I'd need a 9-10* flat club. Does any of this make any sense to you?
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby lagpressure » Sun May 28, 2017 8:52 pm

I do all my major swing drills etc with a 2 iron.
So then all the other clubs seem very easy to hit from there.

I like having the length because I get more speed with the length. Diminishing returns happens with a club over 44 inches, driver.

Then had it right in my opinion in the 1950's through the mid 1960's. Most all of those sets are just fantastic. Great forged blades, they were not messing around with lightweight clubs or cast or cavity backs. Shafts were heavier for better feel and whomp into the ball.
Some great leather grips on some of those sets. That era also produced the games best ball strikers.

Personally I think it would be a mistake to shorten the long irons. Better maybe to lengthen the wedges, 9 and maybe 8 to a 7 iron length.... but I don't do that. I did experiment with that at one time.
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Re: Macgregor Ben Hogan 1 Iron spec - USGA Museum

Postby Ded2Journey » Tue May 30, 2017 4:31 am

lagpressure wrote:I do all my major swing drills etc with a 2 iron.
So then all the other clubs seem very easy to hit from there.

I like having the length because I get more speed with the length. Diminishing returns happens with a club over 44 inches, driver.

Then had it right in my opinion in the 1950's through the mid 1960's. Most all of those sets are just fantastic. Great forged blades, they were not messing around with lightweight clubs or cast or cavity backs. Shafts were heavier for better feel and whomp into the ball.
Some great leather grips on some of those sets. That era also produced the games best ball strikers.

Personally I think it would be a mistake to shorten the long irons. Better maybe to lengthen the wedges, 9 and maybe 8 to a 7 iron length.... but I don't do that. I did experiment with that at one time.


Makes sense to me, but what if you can't go flat enough? Let's say you want to play modern forged irons because they are conforming and you play USGA events?

Obviously the technique requires this, what about younger ABSers that are still competing?
"People have always been telling me what I can't do. I guess I have wanted to show them. That's been one of my driving forces all my life." -Ben Hogan
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