Forged Irons (bending the truth)

Re: Forged Irons (bending the truth)

Postby mrlek » Tue May 13, 2014 12:01 pm

It wouldnt surprise me if the basic 'billet forging' process described below was used by Macgregor in the 50's to produce uniform sets in the numbers they did. Its the same approach still used by Miura and Mizuno.

http://www.jeffsheetsgolf.com/#!billet-forging/c1sdv

Based on what Lag and others have experienced from bendng different clubs, the properties of the raw steel billets could be a factor. Carbon content and other small elements.
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Re: Forged Irons (bending the truth)

Postby mdrretired » Wed May 14, 2014 8:31 pm

Lag and I were looking today at this bit of golf history I found a few years back and thought it might have some interest to those of you who like forged clubs. Apparently this is how they used to do it. These are all Spalding clubs from the mid 1950s I would guess. I especially like the raw forged billet with the head shape locked inside. It is a bit hard to see from the pictures but each head has just a little bit more done to it toward the final result. There was some fine grinding and shaping done especially in the early stages. Someone thankfully, pieced this little collection together and I am unsure if all the processing steps are represented but suspect that they are. I have pics of the matching woods that I will post later.
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Re: Forged Irons (bending the truth)

Postby IanB » Thu May 15, 2014 2:58 am

thats a great find very cool
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Re: Forged Irons (bending the truth)

Postby mrlek » Thu May 15, 2014 9:54 am

Thanks for the great photos. Wonder how they progressed from club 2 to 3 and the more defined shape? If they reheated & repressed or maybe ground it.

I read somewhere else that some of the modern irons are being reheated / pressed up to six times to achieve their weird and (not so) wonderful designs. Perhaps this also has an effect on the hardness?
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Re: Forged Irons (bending the truth)

Postby lagpressure » Thu May 15, 2014 10:55 am

It was interesting to see all the hand grinding done in the early stages. We could see the markings from the various grinders.
So much work going into making just one club... and to think how you can find forged blades from this era in thrift shops for 50 cents.

For the good players, hitting a quality forged blade has a special feel to it that most desire. I certainly don't like the feel of cast clubs, but in the modern age with the hard plastic golf balls, the average golfer couldn't care less.

This is all about the refinement of quality, be it the swing, gear or the overall experience playing the game.
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Re: Forged Irons (bending the truth)

Postby norcalvol » Thu May 15, 2014 11:18 am

Forging, if done properly and completely, minimizes/rids the metal of intergranular pore space and realigns the internal fabric of the metal. This is done either by physically pounding the metal to the extent that the pounding physically eliminates all those internal gaps (pore space), and/or any heating as part of the forging creates some partial melting of the metal and then subsequent re-crystallization results in much less/no pore space. [I'm not a metallurgist, but instead a geologist, and metamorphic rocks, which are created by heat and/or pressure have a similar story with respect to porosity and removal of it...]

This is why clubheads that are forged in a way that modifies the internal structure to the point of minimizing/eradicating the internal pore space are much less prone to breaking when in the vice compared with cast heads (or poorly forged heads) which are more brittle.
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Re: Forged Irons (bending the truth)

Postby bullrambler » Fri May 16, 2014 7:54 pm

Newbie here and good to see the older forging processing of the Spaldings. I've read a great many of the threads here at ABS, and figured I should join ABS because there is not enough experience with heavy flat clubs on other golf sites. So while I digesting what I was reading in these threads I found a set of M 85. Not quite a complete set and I think they may be reissues because the chrome finish is shinny and there is a PW. There was no 2, 3, or 4 iron but the 5 - PW were there so I figured I'd do the ABS experiment. I've played D-6 before so I am familiar with heavy clubs. Some of the irons are about 1/2 inch short (8,7,6,5) and I will bring them up to Lags Lengths fairly soon. These M 85 irons were at C-9 with fairly new Performance Plus 3 Gen Lamkin midsize grips that somebody left by the weigh side. I got a club fitter to bend them about 5 flat; He didn't want to go any further because he didn't want to risk snapping any of the hossels. That was fine, as it gave me a starting point. So I went out and hit them twice at C-9 and about 5* flat. What my results told me is I knew I would have add swing weight to get a better result, which to me means more control, because in the past when I played D-6 I felt I was swinging with more control and could make a more deliberate pass on striking the ball, so I'm venturing back where I have been before.

So C-9 was too light so I started by adding 2 Swing weight points which brought them up to D-1 and went out and hit them again. A tad better control but still not heavy enough to get that deliberate strike that I remember with playing heavier clubs in the past.

They have Stiff Dynamics in them so I'm adding SW gradually because I don't want to overpower the Stiffs with too much swingweight. So I added another 2 Swing weight points on the back of the face and the pyramid on the back is covered by tape along the bottom edge. The additional Swing weight has mostly been a lead tape job and unless some looks at the irons closely they wouldn't notice because some of the tape is on the underside of the shaft running down to the hossel. So with lead tape on the underside of the shaft and more lead tape on the back side of the iron head they are now up to D-3. I'll see how they hit the ball now. But it was just too cold to try them out today at D-3. Depending on how they feel, and what kind of results I get, I will probably add another two or three swingweight points with tungsten powder down the shaft. Hopefully, by putting the tape in different locations and powder down the shaft the distribution will balance out all the additional weight. As mentioned the last place I'll add Swingweight will be down the shaft with a cork plug to keep the powder down the shaft near the head.

I'm going to add a touch of length on the irons that are a bit short and I'm going to try an experiment with a plastic piping designed for RV trailers; that I found at the hardware store. It's about three inches long and should hold up under the grip. It appears to be rigid enough, thick enough can be epoxied and will still allow for powder down the shaft before the grips are reinstalled - with minimal weight. I don't really need to butt weight the irons because of the heavier midsize grips. And I ordered a matching 4 iron to the set and I'll be glad to get it to match it up to the rest. By the time I get it I'll know what to do with it when arrives by mail. If the weighting distribution trials work out - I'll let you's know.

Just remember ABS-ers: "it's clobbering time".
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Re: Forged Irons (bending the truth)

Postby k2baloo » Sat May 17, 2014 3:35 pm

Also remember that when you lengthen the clubs as you said to plan to that that will increase the swingweights a touch as well.
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Re: Forged Irons (bending the truth)

Postby lagpressure » Mon May 19, 2014 8:04 pm

I would lengthen them first before working on the weights.. but also, be more concerned with the dead weights than the swingweights.. dial those in later if you want.. or not.
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Re: Forged Irons (bending the truth)

Postby bullrambler » Sun May 25, 2014 6:09 am

Update
Although I weighed and measured the tape and tungsten my swing weights did not come out matched up. Oddly I ended up with E1 1/2 on the 5 iron and the 7 was lighter at D5. and Everything else was in between. The PW came out at D-8. I've added tape to the heads that were light (7 & 9) so that they are up to D-7. I was hitting them really well before I added the length. Something went AWOL on me during my crude but deliberate build. I have to adjust the lies a bit more and the lofts on some of the irons. There not too far off but I'd like to keep them about 4* apart for loft. Some of the lies require a bit of tweaking too, Just a degree here and there on several of the irons. Unfortunately i have to drive a couple of hours for adjustments and the club fitter accommodates me and is supportive of what I'm attempting to do, but I'd better off with my own swing-weight scale and and a loft and lie machine so I could do the changes when required. I'll work towards picking those up but it may be a while before I obtain those items.

On another related note these M85 irons that I've been monkeying round with are the remakes and have a bit of offset - kind of a trial set. Since then I managed to PU a classic set of M85 with no offset for a decent price. Or at least none that I can see. These iron are the MacGregor Tourney Colokrom irons from 2-9 iron. The labels are Red and Silver and are RIGID flex. They have leather grips and I washed them and let them die for a few days and I've just used some leather conditioner on them and more grime came off. They are getting a bit more pliable though and I might go out and hit them today and see how they perform - with no alterations. Oddly enough, after hitting the flat M85 Remake set I'm finding the vintage M85 set up to the eye better but feel too upright - as no alterations have been done one them.

I'll report later after I hit the Vintage set.
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