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Re: Tour Player Swing Coach Opportunities For Lag

Postby IronOfZion » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:22 am

Go Low wrote:
CaptainChaos wrote:Go Low,

Lag doesn't announce who he teaches anymore because...well, I took the "following the players" thing a little too far. Following...stalking. Pretty much interchangeable in my thesaurus. Silly laws. ;)

Captain Chaos


I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by you taking the "following the players thing too far" and your use of the word "stalking", and then "silly laws". Are you saying that you upset a tour player by trying to contact him/her or literally stalking the player where they became upset? What "laws"?


Go Low, I hope this isn't a serious comment? Can't you see that the Captain is joking here? Everyone here knows he'd never stalk tour players. Way too much exposure. :lol:
The path to enlightenment is paved with good intentions.
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Re: Tour Player Swing Coach Opportunities For Lag

Postby Steb » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:25 am

lagpressure wrote:I think there are different ways of looking at things. Personally, if I were following the tour around and traveling, I would rather be playing on the tour than hanging around the driving range. I don't even like driving ranges actually because they don't represent golf as I like to play it across sidehill lies and actually shaping shots into fairways and greens where my actual round is on the line. When I am on the course, I take my game pretty seriously, in that I actually try to post a score. I played today with the goal of shooting my 4rth straight round in the 60's, but bogeyed 2 of the last four holes for a 71. I have to live with that now! :evil: I enjoy golf a lot these days, and I still enjoy being a student of the game.

As far as tour players, I have worked with quite a few.. some more extensively than others. I'm not sure what constitutes an official player - swing coach relationship these days, if it's a hand shake or a written contract. With the kind of money out there these days, I'm sure everything is done with attorneys and other legal council. Some of the guys I work with or have worked with are more participatory in the private side of this forum. There is an entire other parallel universe going on here at ABS that students are aware of. Some of the pros I have worked with are very open, others prefer more anonymity as they may likely have some kind of contractual arrangements with another instructor or organization. I'm here to help if needed, and not really concerned about what else is going on or who else they are working with.

Teachers taking credit for the success of tour players is another debatable topic. Who's to say it was the swing coach that led to a recent victory? Probably he just started putting well. Sam Randolph made the point in the last installment that nowadays players have 4 or 5 specialists, so each one wants the credit when the player does well.. or blames the player for the breakdown.. such as the nutritionalist blaming the player for not eating his fruit bar on the right hole. The swing coach, the putting coach, the mental coach, the trainer, nutritionist, the clubfitter, even the wife or girlfriend often claim some responsibility.


I haven't had the time or money priorities to progress on with ABS lately, but it's these attitudes that keeps me following in the background and excited to resume asap.
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Re: Tour Player Swing Coach Opportunities For Lag

Postby sixpackkid » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:41 am

Would like to add my 2 cents worth here. I have had the privelege to work with some of the top 10 teachers in the world during my 39 yrs of playing i will not mention names and have seen all types of methods TGM, Morad etc etc. I became frustrated because not that i couldn't do what they wanted me to do but because its not what i saw great players of the past do!!When i asked these great teachers why i had alot of different answers until i went onto the LETS TALK GOLF MACHINE website where i met Lag he understood the swing i was searching for all these yrs. When i signed up and started doing these modules i had some tour pros PGA,LPGA and Nationwide watch me do bag work some couldn't do 5 reps of what i was doing? I've had some great comments from them about the improvement of my ball striking. So when i ask them about there swing all i hear is perfect the backswing swing the arms stay centered dont move the head wrap the club around your neck at the finish.Lag could definetely help any tour player out there and have his own stable as they call it and yes he strikes the ball better than some of the pros i have had the privelege to play with.
One of the great quotes from Leadbetter i found Faldo not the other way around,Tiger was great before Harmon,Jack before flick,Hogan and Trevino no coach.
Lag can watch a player hit 5 shots and evaluate the issues thats the mark of a great teacher!!!!!!!!
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Re: Tour Player Swing Coach Opportunities For Lag

Postby Go Low » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:31 am

BomGolf222 wrote:I'm biting my tongue because you've made quite a few, let just say, 'inaccurate' assumptions in these few posts, and it's really not my place to call you on them, but alas...
Robbo gave you the name of a world class, multiple world event winner, etc. etc., and you somehow glossed over it and followed up with the line that I quoted in my 'biting my tongue' post. What do you consider 'accomplished'? And what is an 'internet' teacher? Would a person be more qualified if he/she worked at the local club and broke 80 twice in a year and then became a 'teaching' pro? And you somehow came to the conclusion that all Lag is teaching is beginner material to beginners. Why would you think that? I'm perplexed by how such an inaccurate conclusion somehow seems so 'obvious' to you.


BomGolf222 wrote:Robbo gave you the name of a world class, multiple world event winner, etc. etc., and you somehow glossed over it and followed up with the line that I quoted in my 'biting my tongue' post. What do you consider 'accomplished'?


I was looking for current tour players, or accomplished golfers, that have the desire and are already on the cusp of playing tour golf. Bradley Hughes is no doubt an accomplished ex-tour golfer, but he is no longer a tour player or wanting to become a tour player. I was specially asking Lag about the type of golfer that was already a tour player or on the cusp of playing on tour. Bradley Hughes has chosen to teach golf...and it appears he teaches a similar swing method as Lag does...yet Bradley teaches and gives lessons in-person instead of over the Internet. That said, I believe you missed the crux of my question to Lag when I asked Lag; "Are you (or would you be) interested in working as a personal swing coach with one or more tour players...if you aren't already doing so?"

BomGolf222 wrote:And what is an 'internet' teacher?


A teacher that teaches using only the Internet with no face-to-face, verbal, real-time, visual, three-dimensional viewing, or having any in-person contact with his students.

BomGolf222 wrote:Would a person be more qualified if he/she worked at the local club and broke 80 twice in a year and then became a 'teaching' pro?


Maybe, maybe not. You might want to ask Tom Kite or Ben Crenshaw about Harvey Penick. Or ask other pros about their teachers and swing coaches, including Haney, Leadbetter, Foley, O'Connell, etc., etc. But, this has nothing to do with what I was asking Lag about.

BomGolf222 wrote:And you somehow came to the conclusion that all Lag is teaching is beginner material to beginners. Why would you think that?


Quite the contrary actually. And that was the basis for my question to Lag; "I believe that tour players and plus handicap golfers could definitely benefit from you as a "personal" swing coach. In other words - I believe you have a lot to offer all golfers...including highly experienced and accomplished golfers and those seeking to become tour players. Which brings me to my main question - Are you (or would you be) interested in working as a "personal" swing coach with one or more tour players...if you aren't already doing so?"

I do believe the ABS training modules are designed for handicap golfers, not necessarily beginners. However, as I have said, if an accomplished golfer (current tour players, or accomplished golfers that have the desire and are already on the cusp of playing tour golf) was looking for a swing change...or a different swing coach and liked Lag's swing method and philosophy it is (as I have said) highly unlikely they would need to do module drills and would probably only want to have a quick look at them to get an idea of what they are about. Instead, they would choose a swing coach in which they could visit and work with face-to-face. Which is why I asked Lag the original question.

Lag is not teaching some new swing method that has never been used before..........
"Reverse every natural instinct and do the opposite of what you are inclined to do, and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing." Ben Hogan
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Re: Tour Player Swing Coach Opportunities For Lag

Postby BomGolf222 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:59 am

I'm tapping out of this discussion. Apologies, but I just don't know where to start with that post and it's really not my place to even try.
Cheers.
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Re: Tour Player Swing Coach Opportunities For Lag

Postby robbo » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:36 am

Go Low wrote:
I do believe the ABS training modules are designed for handicap golfers, not necessarily beginners. However, as I have said, if an accomplished golfer (current tour players, or accomplished golfers that have the desire and are already on the cusp of playing tour golf) was looking for a swing change...or a different swing coach and liked Lag's swing method and philosophy it is (as I have said) highly unlikely they would need to do module drills


I realize the original thread/question was directed to Lag and his response covered it, but I have to ask where your thoughts related to the modules, the drills, and why an "accomplished" player wouldn't need to do them comes from? Have you seen any of the modules?

I'm not saying that a talented golfer who's job it is to play golf and work on his swing wouldn't progress more rapidly thru a module than a lesser skilled golfer and amateur, but the notion that professionals advance purely by hitting range balls while a teacher watches seems off base.

You are very correct in that Lag is not teaching some new swing method that has never been used before. But in my opinion you are very incorrect if you think Lag's APPROACH to teaching these principles has EVER been used before.

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Re: Tour Player Swing Coach Opportunities For Lag

Postby Range Rat » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:47 am

BomGolf222 wrote:I'm tapping out of this discussion.


Well you big chicken you! :lol: Downtime is over for me....time to party again.

Go Low wrote:Lag is not teaching some new swing method that has never been used before..........


You're correct, but thank God for the internet. Somewhere along the line the golfing public got duped into lighter and more upright gear as the panacea for great ball striking. Not to say it can't be done...but Lag has gone that extra mile IMO to shed true light on harnessing CF in ways I've never seen before and is information that is just not out there on the web....not in the way it needs to be defined and discussed. Low...and I mean real low and left rocks....not this outward dump stuff.

I do think professionals can get a lot out of information/videos from the WWW like ABS. I say this in all due respect to ABS....it's is like going into a thrift store where one can find good bargains IF as a seasoned shopper they know where to look. Lag has provided the clues and us outsiders are indebted to it.....at least I am anyway.

But I would never go for a hands on with Lag as he lives west of THE fault line.....and rats don't like falling off decks. :lol: RR
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Re: Tour Player Swing Coach Opportunities For Lag

Postby macs » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:53 am

Bradley Hughes is no doubt an accomplished ex-tour golfer, but he is no longer a tour player or wanting to become a tour player.


He just played in the Australian Open this past week and I believe is playing on the Aussie PGA starting tomorrow/today.
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Re: Tour Player Swing Coach Opportunities For Lag

Postby Addington Arnie » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:11 am

Go Low,

I doubt very seriously any tour player would have a problem doing the Module drills very proficiently regardless of what type of swing they use. Certainly, if they wanted to change from a CF swing to more of a hitting swing they would likely want to do some drills to get an understanding...but, I'm sure they would go to the range and hit thousands upon thousands of balls to incorporate the changes instead of doing drills. We're talking about tour players that already play the game at the highest level and almost certainly understand almost all the facets of the golf swing, regardless of method or type. Also, since they are used to playing and practicing literally everyday they already have very strong golf muscles (pivots, legs, arms, and hands) and an impeccable sense of feel.


I'm not sure its the experience of accomplished golfers here (I don't think plus handicap golfers are likely to be so different to tour players in this regard) that they instantly master all modules without some considerable work and repetition. My guess is that you are right that as a group they are likely to often start at a higher base point in terms of proficiency than handicap golfers and a few modules may perhaps be a refresher, reminder or reinforcer of how the body should act rather than something completely new. However I suspect, though have no proof, that for many tour players some modules would be pretty new territory, though I have not progressed through all of them myself. I am not sure that most most tour players do "understand almost all the facets of the golf swing, regardless of method or type". If they did I am not sure there would be the amount of churn between "flavor of the month" teachers that is readily apparent with this group! :)

But to me the key point is that the modules are designed to get you to progress in the direction you want go quicker and more effectively than beating thousands of balls. As ABS is largely about opposing forces and pressures, using elements like the impact bag, which provide greater resistance and can help isolate part of a motion, are likely to be more effective than just observing and ball beating. I think that would apply to anyone, regardless of ability.

But I think being a tour coach these days seems to be much more than simply providing technical instruction or guidance. Interestingly I've seen it suggested that top golfers took a greater personal responsibility for their own swings on a day to day basis in previous generations than they do now.

Cheers, Arnie

P.S For the avoidance of doubt I am not in this sub category of "accomplished golfers". Yet :D
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Re: Tour Player Swing Coach Opportunities For Lag

Postby Go Low » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:18 am

lagpressure wrote:I think there are different ways of looking at things. Personally, if I were following the tour around and traveling, I would rather be playing on the tour than hanging around the driving range. I don't even like driving ranges actually because they don't represent golf as I like to play it across sidehill lies and actually shaping shots into fairways and greens where my actual round is on the line. When I am on the course, I take my game pretty seriously, in that I actually try to post a score. I played today with the goal of shooting my 4rth straight round in the 60's, but bogeyed 2 of the last four holes for a 71. I have to live with that now! :evil: I enjoy golf a lot these days, and I still enjoy being a student of the game.

As far as tour players, I have worked with quite a few.. some more extensively than others. I'm not sure what constitutes an official player - swing coach relationship these days, if it's a hand shake or a written contract. With the kind of money out there these days, I'm sure everything is done with attorneys and other legal council. Some of the guys I work with or have worked with are more participatory in the private side of this forum. There is an entire other parallel universe going on here at ABS that students are aware of. Some of the pros I have worked with are very open, others prefer more anonymity as they may likely have some kind of contractual arrangements with another instructor or organization. I'm here to help if needed, and not really concerned about what else is going on or who else they are working with.

Teachers taking credit for the success of tour players is another debatable topic. Who's to say it was the swing coach that led to a recent victory? Probably he just started putting well. Sam Randolph made the point in the last installment that nowadays players have 4 or 5 specialists, so each one wants the credit when the player does well.. or blames the player for the breakdown.. such as the nutritionalist blaming the player for not eating his fruit bar on the right hole. The swing coach, the putting coach, the mental coach, the trainer, nutritionist, the clubfitter, even the wife or girlfriend often claim some responsibility.

The internet allows me the ability to teach a wide variety of students across the entire planet which is really wonderful.
I don't really see it as being that limiting, because I can see what is going on in a video. Sometimes I might ask the student to re shoot a sequence or take from a different angle. Most of the time, if a player is taking a lesson, they end up in the video room looking at the screen anyway. I really don't feel I need to watch a player grind through a 100 golf balls on the range so that they think they got their money's worth. I can usually see something in about 5 seconds, so it's more productive actually to just send them on their way with this weeks new direction or instruction. Then we catch up the next week. I really don't like being held hostage on a driving range with a student asking me after every shank, skull, push, hook, block, pull, slice, fat or thin shot, then demanding a detailed answer for each misfortune. :roll:

I do teach occasionally here out back on my deck, with fresh air and a great view, and I can work closely with a student on their module work in person which is certainly beneficial.. and we can hit drivers or any club into the meadow below down the canyon. It's like a very private driving range free of the usual distractions which I find really wonderful. I like to play a round of golf with the student, and I can see and learn where their game is at, and they can learn a lot by watching me play and ask questions. I don't really like giving playing lessons, because I like to play myself, and I really do think they can learn just by being out on the course with me. I mean obviously things do come up.. but I don't believe in teaching the golf swing on the golf course.

As far as working with big name tour pros.. I don't rule it out... nor do I expect it. I could teach some of them a few things, as I know for a fact I can strike the ball better than a lot of them.. even playing just once a week. I find the proficiency of the typical tour player not all that impressive. I'd like to see a lot of them play a round of golf with persimmon and blades on a real golf course, not the treeless wide open polo fields with velvet greens they are all accustomed to... but a course where they actually have to shape shots and play a strategic game. Proper golf.

Who knows what the future brings.. if Steve Elkington found Sevam1 on youtube, anything is possible! :mrgreen:


Thanks for the reply Lag. It sounds like you are satisfied and enjoying what you're currently doing with respect to your online instructional classes. Nothing wrong with that!

There is no doubt you really enjoy playing old golf clubs that were made 40+ years ago, which I've noticed is more than just simply a hobby that you personally enjoy. I see that you actually advocate, or urge, that your students acquire and play with the very older equipment...and modify the lie angle beyond what has ever been considered anything close to standard by any club manufacturer. At first I thought the reason you wanted your students to use this old (and modified) equipment might be [a means for you] to have your students speed-up their progress with much heavier clubs, stiffer and heavier shafts, blade clubheads and a smaller sweetspot. And that the 5*-6* down lie angle modification was to promote the student to have a better delivery from a flatter elbow plane or hand plane versus a higher turned-shoulder plane while using the module drills. But, the more I've read, the more it appears that you want or expect your students to play with this old and [lie angle] modified equipment from now on. Is that correct? Do you expect your students not to use the most advanced, modern-day, equipment? This seems rather odd to me. It's like a someone taking tennis lessons and the teacher wants the student to play with 50 year-old tennis rackets instead of using the most modern and advanced equipment available, which other tennis players (including pros) use...just because the teacher enjoys playing the old equipment.

I'm curious, have you had many of your ABS students become disenchanted because they are strongly urged to use 40+ year-old clubs with abnormally modified lie angles? This seems (to me) that it would be a turn-off for a lot of people.
"Reverse every natural instinct and do the opposite of what you are inclined to do, and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing." Ben Hogan
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