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Re: Tour Player Swing Coach Opportunities For Lag

Postby TeddyIrons » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:55 pm

Great discussion here and thanks Twomasters for that account of your meeting with Ogilvy - it's an eye-opener.

I think there are some things in your reasoning Go Low that I disagree with. The first is that professional golfers know what's good for them - I'm convinced that 90% of them don't which is why they need a coach - very few of them "own their swing". Tiger has all the talent but hasn't had the knowledge to realize that someone like Hank Haney was ruining his golf swing. I think anybody taking the ABS journey is on the road to owning their swing - I bet there's nobody in the world that owns his own swing more than Lag does.

The other thing I disagree with is that ABS modules are for high handicappers. I can tell you that as a high handicapper myself, the ABS modules take longer to filter in at first whereas a +handicap golfer can reap benefits quicker. The modules are not so difficult to execute but for a high handicapper they are a long way from what we are doing, especially in the modules that deal with transition.

Also, I think it's wrong to say that professional golfers would not do module work - they do all sorts of drills without a ball to make changes to their swings; Tiger is doing that now for example, and I've seen many other examples.

Personally I love playing with blades and my scores have not worsened at all - rather my game has adapted to be able to play them - likewise playing flatter lies - I just love them and I'm sure I wouldn't be getting the benefit of ABS without them. I'm now flattening some persimmons to start playing with them too... in the end, I care about playing good golf - if I ever need to score in the future and playing winning golf, I'm free to put titanium in the bag if it will get me extra distance, although I'm clearly going to struggle with the lies - however, I'll be playing my blades and not the cavity backs... ABS sets us up to play better golf, and to lower our scores too but to get there we don't take the easy option of playing with frying pans that don't give us the necessary feedback to hone our swing.
You must work very hard to become a natural golfer ~~ Gary Player
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Re: Tour Player Swing Coach Opportunities For Lag

Postby lagpressure » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:42 pm

Knowing full well he was in form since he won The Aussie Open last week, I dragged out my 1948 MacGregor Hogan persimmon driver and asked Ogilvy to give it a hit....his eyes lit up like a little kid and he said out loud how great it would be if players were made to use persimmons again so we could identify the ball strikers instead of having everyone slap it 300 yards even with off centred hits
Needless to say,he hit about 6 drives with my persimmon and flushed all of them, carrying a couple of them into the fence at the end of the range probably about 270 yards away.
We had a few onlookers as we were trading persimmon smacks on the range and the Titleist rep came running over immediately......giving us all the facts and figures....that a persimmon driver has the same smash factor as a frying pan driver but because of the heavier weight players swing speeds decrease and they can't hit the ball anywhere near as far....blah, blah
So I said to him..."That's because golfers accelerate too soon from the transition and run out of speed through impact ....What if a player knew the correct moment to speed up his swing through impact and beyond and not just dump speed into impact and fold to the finish....I would guarantee they would hit the ball just as far no matter what club they used".......
He looked at me with a blank stare .....Ogilvy smiled...because he had just instinctively done what I mentioned should be done.....and that was that


Priceless 8-)
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Re: Tour Player Swing Coach Opportunities For Lag

Postby macs » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:54 pm

Twomasters is a living proof of the golf coaching out there. Here is guy with extraordinary talent with a home built golf swing with which he was winning till he made the decision to seek the Gurus and make it a coockie cutterr swing. After which he lost his organic motion and being a smart guy and involved in teaching himself could not figure out what was going on.
If you meet Lag in person someday, and the simple life he lives, almost in prophetic tradition, it looks like finally the golfing Gods have decided to send a prophet to reveal the CODE for golf and end the misery of the golfing populace (not the manufacturers).
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Re: Tour Player Swing Coach Opportunities For Lag

Postby Go Low » Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:08 am

macs wrote:Go Low
Let me briefly explain. We have too theoretical clubs here; A: with Zero lie angle and B: with 90 degree lie angle. Its not so much about OTT. Rather its about the effect of face angle variation (and we know from Ball Flight Laws that face angle is more important than Club path). Try to rotate the handle with your fingers ALA face on both these clubs. Rotating club A does not affect direction it only affects ball height while rotating club B affects direction in a 180 degree arc.
Now these are extremes but a 6 degree flat 3 iron with a standard lie of 60' means a 10% forgivness on face angle blemishes. Which means you V will be much narrower. Of course there are the benefits of engaging the pivot and OTT less likely but the face angle forgiveness is the main advantage in hitting straighter (although varying flights).
Now you might ask why not go further down but you know its not easy for the body to keep lowering and at some degree of flateness it will simply refuse to move because the spine is at risk. But 6-8 degree is achievable for most serious golfers if they are willing to put the effort for 6-12 months. I have tried 12 degree flat but at that point it becomes quite silly.


Thanks Macs. Yes, I see and understand what you're saying.
"Reverse every natural instinct and do the opposite of what you are inclined to do, and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing." Ben Hogan
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Re: Tour Player Swing Coach Opportunities For Lag

Postby Prot » Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:54 am

Let me just say I think there is an 'inbetween' land that does exist, even in Lag's utopia world of heavy metal and wood.

Upon meeting Lag a while ago he quickly prompted me to purchase a set of older irons. I now own two sets of Hogan PC's from the mid 80's. One has modern shafts (the originals were installed incorrectly).

Now I never played golf as a kid and even though I'm no spring chicken, I hadn't even played something like this before. I had them flattened by 3 degrees below the standard (but back in the 80's even they were FAR flatter than let's say a real hacker set like Burner 2.0's)

I practiced these things all damn winter, and in the spring I ended up betting my best score the previous year with these in play.

I still take them out for a kicking now and then. They are a little heavier, and flatter than the blades I play, and to be honest the forging is beautiful feel. (Those old texas forgings are butter.)

But when I play, you bet I have the big, modern dog in the bag. Even my 'gamers' are a modern forging. So what is my point? I think we are where we are in modern golf- hate or love the modern gear. It isn't going anywhere. And I play against guys who do crush it around 300. I don't have the best swing speed in the first place so you bet I play what will give me a -tactical- edge.

But how well I hit that driver, or even my modern blades has been *sharpened* and re-calibrated by the old irons I take out in the winter, and to the range. You are right, the sharp leading edge can be a turn off for a digger, but that's the point! You play this stuff, and you will find the center more often, you will find yourself feeling acceleration better, you will end up swinging a little flatter. And that's the point.

On a side note our league had a 'retro' wind up party where we were urged to bring old gear out. I brought my Hogan blades, and some heavy wooden woods.... Northwestern... and I was the only one in my group that could even hit more than 100 yards. That's the honest truth. I was surprised, but it did back up what my goal is in using this stuff even if it's not in a competitive environment.

So yes, I agree there are extremists in ABS, and there are moderate advocates of the old gear like myself. Regardless, there is value in at least 'familiarizing' yourself with the distinct feedback, and physical demands of the gear. I have no doubt of that.
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Re: Tour Player Swing Coach Opportunities For Lag

Postby Go Low » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:13 am

Prot wrote:Let me just say I think there is an 'inbetween' land that does exist, even in Lag's utopia world of heavy metal and wood.

Upon meeting Lag a while ago he quickly prompted me to purchase a set of older irons. I now own two sets of Hogan PC's from the mid 80's. One has modern shafts (the originals were installed incorrectly).

Now I never played golf as a kid and even though I'm no spring chicken, I hadn't even played something like this before. I had them flattened by 3 degrees below the standard (but back in the 80's even they were FAR flatter than let's say a real hacker set like Burner 2.0's)

I practiced these things all damn winter, and in the spring I ended up betting my best score the previous year with these in play.

I still take them out for a kicking now and then. They are a little heavier, and flatter than the blades I play, and to be honest the forging is beautiful feel. (Those old texas forgings are butter.)

But when I play, you bet I have the big, modern dog in the bag. Even my 'gamers' are a modern forging. So what is my point? I think we are where we are in modern golf- hate or love the modern gear. It isn't going anywhere. And I play against guys who do crush it around 300. I don't have the best swing speed in the first place so you bet I play what will give me a -tactical- edge.

But how well I hit that driver, or even my modern blades has been *sharpened* and re-calibrated by the old irons I take out in the winter, and to the range. You are right, the sharp leading edge can be a turn off for a digger, but that's the point! You play this stuff, and you will find the center more often, you will find yourself feeling acceleration better, you will end up swinging a little flatter. And that's the point.

On a side note our league had a 'retro' wind up party where we were urged to bring old gear out. I brought my Hogan blades, and some heavy wooden woods.... Northwestern... and I was the only one in my group that could even hit more than 100 yards. That's the honest truth. I was surprised, but it did back up what my goal is in using this stuff even if it's not in a competitive environment.

So yes, I agree there are extremists in ABS, and there are moderate advocates of the old gear like myself. Regardless, there is value in at least 'familiarizing' yourself with the distinct feedback, and physical demands of the gear. I have no doubt of that.


Thanks Prot! It sounds like you have used the older gear to improve your swing. In my case I played the old gear (or what is now considered old) when I first started playing so I definitely know what it's like to play the old irons and persimmon woods - there was no choice! I was fortunate to start playing golf when I was just a kid. I'd say that chances are good that me playing the [old] gear from the 70s might be one of the main reasons I was able to hone a good swing. No one can ever be sure of something like that. I never liked the cavity-back irons or anything more than a tiny smidgen of offset so I [still] play with blade irons, only they are relatively new blade irons in lieu of the really old stuff. As for persimmon woods, I did not change over to metal woods until long after most everyone else already changed. Come to think of it, I was not much for changing to graphite shafts either (in woods) when they came out because the shafts were way too flexible and had way too much torque. I recall snapping a half dozen graphite shafts before they figured out how to wrap the graphite fibers correctly. It's kind of nice to reflect back on those days...
"Reverse every natural instinct and do the opposite of what you are inclined to do, and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing." Ben Hogan
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Re: Tour Player Swing Coach Opportunities For Lag

Postby macs » Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:54 am

I really dont care if the blade is new or old but there are important differences that I need to be aware of. I have a set of 1970 Ram XPD 100 (The ones Tom Watson used to use). I have measured each head before shafting them with X100s. When compared to Maltby's iron head specification each iron is exactly 10 g heavier (the mainstream manufacturers dont even give that info). 10 g is 5 swing weights and these irons came out to be D7/D8 as compared to around D2 for todays blades. When you reach to Modules 6, 7 and beyond thats where you really start wishing you had more weight on the club. Simply put a deeper transition.
The other major difference is in how that weight is distributed. Most modern irons including blades have more weight toward the toe side. They have a lot of ways to do that e.g making the hosel shorter; the toe bulkier and on some like the Maxflies Aussies the bounce gets wider toward the toe. Of course there is the obvious forms of cavities and thinning the face on cavity backs. In the golf swing (at least in mine) at full speed you feel the club as one so your contact is where the weight is. From my personal experrience your contact will tend to go toward the toe on a more toe weighte blade over time.
And lastly who is making your modern blade. I bet most club makers in America were golfers. Looking at the amount of work that goes on after you stomp the piece of metal, I would rather have my blade by a golfer rather than some guy whose only understanding is to make it shiny.
The XPDS I am talking about were bought unhit for $29 plus another may be $120 in shafts and grips and lie adjustment. That way I can have 5 sets of irons for the pricce of one. It was a heck of a tough process getting them into playing shape but along the way I learned so many things about irons, shafts and golf in general.
The modern driver is a different beast altogether and lets suffice to say that its a total 140 g lighter than my 3 iron.
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Re: Tour Player Swing Coach Opportunities For Lag

Postby Go Low » Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:56 am

macs wrote:I really dont care if the blade is new or old but there are important differences that I need to be aware of. I have a set of 1970 Ram XPD 100 (The ones Tom Watson used to use). I have measured each head before shafting them with X100s. When compared to Maltby's iron head specification each iron is exactly 10 g heavier (the mainstream manufacturers dont even give that info). 10 g is 5 swing weights and these irons came out to be D7/D8 as compared to around D2 for todays blades. When you reach to Modules 6, 7 and beyond thats where you really start wishing you had more weight on the club. Simply put a deeper transition.
The other major difference is in how that weight is distributed. Most modern irons including blades have more weight toward the toe side. They have a lot of ways to do that e.g making the hosel shorter; the toe bulkier and on some like the Maxflies Aussies the bounce gets wider toward the toe. Of course there is the obvious forms of cavities and thinning the face on cavity backs. In the golf swing (at least in mine) at full speed you feel the club as one so your contact is where the weight is. From my personal experrience your contact will tend to go toward the toe on a more toe weighte blade over time.
And lastly who is making your modern blade. I bet most club makers in America were golfers. Looking at the amount of work that goes on after you stomp the piece of metal, I would rather have my blade by a golfer rather than some guy whose only understanding is to make it shiny.
The XPDS I am talking about were bought unhit for $29 plus another may be $120 in shafts and grips and lie adjustment. That way I can have 5 sets of irons for the pricce of one. It was a heck of a tough process getting them into playing shape but along the way I learned so many things about irons, shafts and golf in general.
The modern driver is a different beast altogether and lets suffice to say that its a total 140 g lighter than my 3 iron.


Hi Macs, Is your [above highlighted] question for me or Prot? I'm not sure. If it's for me, I've been playing Mizuno MP33 3-PW irons with Dynamic Gold X100 shafts for 6-7 years. I played the MP14 model prior to that.
"Reverse every natural instinct and do the opposite of what you are inclined to do, and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing." Ben Hogan
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Re: Tour Player Swing Coach Opportunities For Lag

Postby macs » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:52 am

I dont know if Mizunos irons are made in China or Japan. I meant the real worker who grinds the raw iron head and not the name of the manufacturer. Twomaster recently went over to Don White at Scratch Golf and took a few hours to grind the raw heads.
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Re: Tour Player Swing Coach Opportunities For Lag

Postby CaptainChaos » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:54 am

macs wrote:...If you meet Lag in person someday, and the simple life he lives, almost in prophetic tradition, ...


However, if Lag starts talking about Hale Bopp comet, moving to a Waco Texas commune or drinking Kool-Aid - I'm outta here! ;)

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