Blast from the Past

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Blast from the Past

Postby saskgolfer » Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:34 pm

Lag: I've been reading through the the pages in the LTLGM site for a few days now. I've gotten to the about 34 or 35 and I've started to wonder how you view your swing to have changed since you interacted on this forum.

I'm thinking specifically when early in the forum discussion you noted that you were playing clubs bent "1 degree flat." Obviously this is much less then what you generally advocate now. I'm wondering if over the past few years you have just continued to go flatter and flatter or if you were using a different reference back in 08. also, how have your experiences and learning over the past few years contributed to your increasingly flat lie angles.

I'm also wondering about your swing sequence which you posted on October 21 2008. It seems you certainly have gone through some development. Especially regarding how much you slot the club as well as your rotation past P4 (see the club face rotation in the final picture of the sequence). I don't want to take your swing out of context. Obviously I don't know what type of shot you were playing or the circumstances which led to the shot. I just wanted to give a comparison to what you were doing a few years ago. Feel free to comment on anything you might think is worthwhile. I'm just picking gout a few things I noticed.

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Re: Blast from the Past

Postby lagpressure » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:41 am

I basically didn't play golf from 1993 to 2006. The big radical changes I made were in 1988 going from a TGM swinging procedure to an actual hitting procedure (non TGM version). Took about 9 months of very hard work.
Refined that the best I could while on tour for the next 5 years before I retired.

Flattening my swing significantly more was something I wanted to do while I was on tour, but I knew that I would have to flatten my gear also to complete that process. I just had too many events and responsibilities to deal with to go as flat as I wanted, and I knew it would take another year to implement that.

Coming back to playing golf again after more than a decade, I now had the time to make the changes I wanted to make. After coming back I just started pretty much where I left off... then decided to go ahead and commit to the big changes. I wish I had done it a long time ago... back when I was on tour. Flat lie angles are such a huge advantage if you have a swing to match properly. The geometry does wonders allow one to really hit while taking the left side of the course out of play. Learning to slot the club properly then led to a much more dynamic golf swing than I ever had before, and I then had to move into much firmer shafts particularly with the driver. I actually just got around to reshafting my 2 wood to match just a couple days ago. I now really understand golf shafts for hitters and how they must differ in set up from a swinging protocol. The manufactures do not have it right. Only a couple have ever had it right in history.

Over the past few years I have played a lot of different iron sets and gone through half a dozen drivers, and a few putters in search of what I feel is optimum from not only from a physics and geometry perspective but a feel perspective also. Golf is a game of feel, make no mistakes.

There are quite a few very talented players here on ABS, so I think it is imperative that I keep my own action in respectable form and continue to learn and search for truth and optimal understanding. I don't like the idea of teaching based upon speculation. If I can't do it.. I don't teach it. I field test any new concepts for at least 6 months before I release something in the private area.

No doubt the biggest breakthrough I have made is learning how to putt. I absolutely believe that I know the reason so many great strikers have struggled endlessly on the greens. I putt better now with zero practice than I ever did on tour grinding on my putting stroke at least 2 hours a day. I can only imagine how much better a tour player I would have been if I could have been a good putter. I was never a good putter on tour. I was easily giving up 2 shots a round to guys on the greens. That's at least 8 shots a week. Even when I won on the Canadian Tour I was never under 30 putts a round all week. That would be completely unheard of today.

Ironically, the very early putting methods used.... and the gear set up.... was much more correct back in the hickory era than what has been put forth over the last few decades. There is a lost technique to putting on slower bumpier greens that still has relevance putting on modern greens.
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Re: Blast from the Past

Postby saskgolfer » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:21 pm

Lag: I now really understand golf shafts for hitters and how they must differ in set up from a swinging protocol. The manufactures do not have it right. Only a couple have ever had it right in history.

That's interesting. I'd love it if you would expand on that thought. I haven't developed my "feel" enough yet to be able to sense differences in heavier steel shafts. I've had a pronounced disdain for graphite shafts ever since I started playing golf. I just can't stand the feeling of a wet noodle in my hands. Even "regular" steel shafts are getting too "noodly" for me now. This is all part of the development I suppose. So far, from reading posts by yourself and others on this forum I've really come away with the message that, for hitters, shafts really aren't a big deal because we don't have to rely on timing their "kick" like swingers do. However, I suppose like most things in golf, after you get to a certain level of comprehension and "feel," even the smaller details become important (although only as one's development requires). Any further commentary on shafts as they relate to hitters would be most welcome.

Lag: Over the past few years I have played a lot of different iron sets and gone through half a dozen drivers, and a few putters in search of what I feel is optimum from not only from a physics and geometry perspective but a feel perspective also. Golf is a game of feel, make no mistakes.

I like how this way of thinking about the golf swing and equipment flips the modern sensibilities on its head. If I go into a golf shop or talk to my local pro all I ever hear is that the geometry and physics of the golf swing will give you the feel you should have (down the line, "on plane," etc., etc.,). But the ABS model (as you've said many times) seems to subvert that idea saying that Golf is first and foremost a game of feel, a game where different swings and different Physics/geometry (within certain parameters) should be expected. Because of this the feel a golfer has will allow for different lie angles, dead weights, shaft flex, swing weights and so on between one player and the next. I guess you could say the modern fitting theories say that geometry/physics dictates feel, while ABS wants to say that Feel dictates Geometry/physics. Of course this is set within a given range since eventually a hitter's wing will fall apart if it goes outside the range (where that range is I have no idea, at least not yet).

Lag:There are quite a few very talented players here on ABS, so I think it is imperative that I keep my own action in respectable form and continue to learn and search for truth and optimal understanding. I don't like the idea of teaching based upon speculation. If I can't do it.. I don't teach it. I field test any new concepts for at least 6 months before I release something in the private area.

I think that is what I love so much about this site: the overall quality of the posts and discussion. The same goes (although sometimes to a lesser extent) for Grady's and Bradley's forums over on SITD. Not just high quality golfers, but high quality communicators who are able to do, teach and discuss with competence. while i'm on the subject, its been a while since I've see any video from you. I'm sure you post more on the private part of the site, but i'd love to see where you are at now with your superslotting or just to hear/see what you've been working on in your own game/equipment (as you hinted at in your post).

Lag: [i]No doubt the biggest breakthrough I have made is learning how to putt. I absolutely believe that I know the reason so many great strikers have struggled endlessly on the greens. I putt better now with zero practice than I ever did on tour grinding on my putting stroke at least 2 hours a day. I can only imagine how much better a tour player I would have been if I could have been a good putter. I was never a good putter on tour. I was easily giving up 2 shots a round to guys on the greens. That's at least 8 shots a week. Even when I won on the Canadian Tour I was never under 30 putts a round all week. That would be completely unheard of today.

Ironically, the very early putting methods used.... and the gear set up.... was much more correct back in the hickory era than what has been put forth over the last few decades. There is a lost technique to putting on slower bumpier greens that still has relevance putting on modern greens.[/i
]

I've read a lot of what you've had to say on the matter of putting but i'm still waiting for you to let the cat out of the bag (or maybe I've just missed it). The idea of "hitting" to putt is especially interesting. I recently picked up a Tommy Armour 'Ironmaster's" putter from the 40's and the first time I looked down at the ball with it in hand I completely understood why all the great putters of the 40's, 50's, 60's and even 70's used the technique they did. The putter basically asks you to "hit" the ball, not "stroke" it!
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Re: Blast from the Past

Postby lagpressure » Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:49 pm

Any further commentary on shafts as they relate to hitters would be most welcome.



Well, I came to the realization that I don't want to have to adapt to two different kinds of shafts.. that being iron shafts and wood shafts. I want to use basically the same swing from wedge to driver. To do this effectively, you need to have the same kind of shafts in all your clubs. Same meaning... the steps will be cut progressively shorter as the heads get heavier. I simply applied the same concept right into the woods. I use iron shafts in my woods now. As a hitter, one who holds shaft flex, the load on the shaft as far a pressure will be the same whether or not the shaft is firm or loose. But how that energy is transferred to the golf ball will vary depending upon shaft flex. The firmer the shaft, the more consistent the transfer. I am not talking only about speed, I am also talking about torque and off center strikes (deflection). The better a striker you become as a hitter, the more you should be demanding firmer shafts. I like to start students off on very firm shafts. Might as well get used to them now... and one can certainly grow into them.


i'd love to see where you are at now with your superslotting or just to hear/see what you've been working on in your own game/equipment (as you hinted at in your post).


Most golfers and most all instructors have no idea how to really slot the golf club. I have asked tour players who slot the club well to describe what they do and they really have no idea. They just do it. But that does not lead to good teaching. If you can't show someone with average athleticism how to slot the club, then you are not understanding what needs to happen. I figured it out by accident. But just knowing how to do it only the first rung on the ladder. The second is to learn how to do it.. not just know intellectually how to do it. The next rung once you learn how to do it.. is to learn how to take that to a golf ball and make good contact. Then you have to learn it so good that you actually forget how to NOT do it. This is where I am right now.. somewhere in the land of getting it under my skin. Then you learn to take it to the golf course, and apply it to hitting shots.. working the ball left to right... right to left.. low and high and all those combinations.

I wish I was working on this when I had all day to play golf and no real responsibilities other than to play 36 holes a day and hit 500 golf balls. But at times I have experienced the best ball striking rounds of my life fairly recently... and this happening without playing much or hitting balls. This is great technique, stuff of the Gods really.. but not easy to implement. It take work just like anything else in life worth pursuing. I've been enjoying the process and experiencing some humps and bumps along the way.. just as any golfer going through technical changes would experience.



I've read a lot of what you've had to say on the matter of putting but i'm still waiting for you to let the cat out of the bag (or maybe I've just missed it)


I have it all down in a putting module for the ABS students who want to give it a go. There are a lot of ways to putt, and I have tried many of them... but I really believe this is a very good time tested method that is supported by many of the greatest putters such as Aoki, Locke, Crenshaw, Roberts..and others. It shatters most conventional thought, but I also show that a lot the the popular fundamentals are not adhered to by many of the great putters.
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Re: Blast from the Past

Postby Craig Toone » Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:19 am

I'd like to float the idea of having Lag & Bradley threads in the vault.... please!!!
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Re: Blast from the Past

Postby saskgolfer » Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:39 pm

Love this quote:

"I won’t call someone a swinger unless I see complete commitment to it’s principles. When someone says Tiger or Norman are swingers they would not qualify in my book. Way too much manipulation going on for my endorsement for a swinging medal of honor. I say this because I came from the most hard core swinging camp being groomed as a swinging “elitist purest” from the death camps of Ben Doyle and Greg McHatton." (Dec 02, 2008)

priceless stuff.
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Re: Blast from the Past

Postby bullrambler » Tue May 20, 2014 9:25 am

Well, I came to the realization that I don't want to have to adapt to two different kinds of shafts.. that being iron shafts and wood shafts. I want to use basically the same swing from wedge to driver. To do this effectively, you need to have the same kind of shafts in all your clubs. Same meaning... the steps will be cut progressively shorter as the heads get heavier. I simply applied the same concept right into the woods. I use iron shafts in my woods now. As a hitter, one who holds shaft flex, the load on the shaft as far a pressure will be the same whether or not the shaft is firm or loose. But how that energy is transferred to the golf ball will vary depending upon shaft flex. The firmer the shaft, the more consistent the transfer. I am not talking only about speed, I am also talking about torque and off center strikes (deflection). The better a striker you become as a hitter, the more you should be demanding firmer shafts. I like to start students off on very firm shafts. Might as well get used to them now... and one can certainly grow into them.

To get a firm understanding on using iron shafts in a driver and fairway woods there are a few things that have to be clarified so readers can get a clear message on how an iron shaft fits the driver / fairway woods.

1. Iron shafts are thicker in the tip then most driver shafts.
2. The step pattern in a 1 iron or 2 iron shaft has the steps further up the shaft then wedge shafts.
3. In comparison - steel driver shafts are thinner and have the steps lower on the shaft.
4. What i understand you saying is that when an iron shaft is used in a driver the driver has to be bored out to fit the driver; the 1 or 2 iron shaft has to tip trimmed (how much...?); and the butt has to be extended to make it a proper driver length club.
Maybe I missed it, but your explanation would be a appreciated.
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Re: Blast from the Past

Postby lagpressure » Tue May 20, 2014 11:40 am

Correct,

If you use an iron shaft, then you will come up about 4 inches short. Then if you tip it to get the deflection pattern consistent with your other irons, you'll have to tip it quite a bit, so then you have to add an extender on the butt side to get it up to length. The other option is to simply drop in one of those great shafts made by Precision Brunswick back in the 1970's.

Watkins, Floyd, Palmer, Hogan to name a few went with this method and for good reason.

Because driver shafts are so much longer, they get whippier, that's why they taper tipped them.. but it's not enough. The longer looser shafts relative to iron shafts will move the ball farther for swingers, but not so much difference for hitters.

So then it comes down to priorities. Are you a position minded fairway seeker or are you only interested in hitting past your playing partners while risking a few visits to the outer reaches of the golf course?
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Re: Blast from the Past

Postby bullrambler » Thu May 22, 2014 2:19 pm

Greetings Lag and everyone else at ABS

Do you recall when True temper changed out the shaft stickers in the DG to an orange color...? I had one of those from about 20 years ago in an X kicking around. I wanted more control so I used it and reshafted a Titleist 983K in 7.5 loft. It's a bore through driver head so from the last step to the bottom of the club is about 7 inches. And it's swing weighted to about D-6 or so. It's about 43 1/2 long. It would be nice to have it flatter, but I don't want to mess with it by melting the epoxy. But I would try a flat lie in persimmon or laminates. It's not a real easy task to perform and my attempt with a MacGregor M-85 Four wood did not turn out so good. I went too flat in my drilling. It was my first attempt and I was working on fixing the head with two big cracks in it.

I appreciate your theory and methodology and have given it several attempts and will continue to do so with the irons I had bent flat about 5 degrees. They were M85 remakes and I didn't know the difference between those and the older vintage version M 85 irons. With standard lengths and midsize grips they were at C-9. I went out and tried them anyways to see how I would relate to the flat lies. They were ok -but light. I added two swing weight points of lead tape and went out and hit them again. Better but not a good as I figure they could be. Then I added 2 SW points with tape on the shaft but didn't go and hit them. So I decided to lengthen the shafts and added another 3 SW points with some tungsten powder. Went out and hit them last night - but I wasn't too pleased to see how I was hitting them. Anyways it was not a bad experiment and will do things a bit differently on the next build.

I'm older now but can still crank a ball fairly well have been a scratch player and after reducing my playing and practicing time over about a 6 year period I am now aiming for more consistency and a good solid game. I loved the sound of hitting the old Wilson Tour bloke but I know it wasn't flat enough and the shaft is not stiff enough (R-400) - so I'm piece-meal-ing my way into ABS.

I did pick up a set of vintage M85 irons (no offset 2-9 iron) and they came with the True Temper tourney Red & Silver labels with a diamond around the R. I understand that this means R for Rigid and they are Dynamic shafts for sure. I gather that the R means stiff. Before I do any modifications i have to consider whether I can use these shafts as is; bend them flat, add a bit of length to the butt. I'd like to save the leather grips but do not know it that is feasible. And I'm not too sure if they will require some SW added.

Because you did the M 85 irons on the ABS specifications Just wondering what would you suggest. Your comments and suggestions are appreciated.
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Re: Blast from the Past

Postby bullrambler » Thu May 22, 2014 2:24 pm

[quote="lagpressure"]Correct,

If you use an iron shaft, then you will come up about 4 inches short. Then if you tip it to get the deflection pattern consistent with your other irons, you'll have to tip it quite a bit, so then you have to add an extender on the butt side to get it up to length. The other option is to simply drop in one of those great shafts made by Precision Brunswick back in the 1970's.

I'm not sure which shafts by Precision Brunswick in the 1970's your referring to. Do you have a shaft label that I could see.

And as a friendly suggestion it would be great to have a Shaft thread on older shaft labels so ABS golfers can reduce their searches down to the best options that are out there.
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