Flat vs Upright

Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby Stu Carlburger » Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:28 pm


I know you addressed Lag specifically, but for me personally the action (or inaction as it were) is one of the main keys of my golf swing. I like to preset internal rotation of the right shoulder which manifests itself, in larger part, in the right elbow. Clearly, one can let the right elbow “go” a bit and still have a great swing, but (at least to me) it’s adding an element of timing as the elbow has to be returned to its starting position in front of right.
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Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby paradigm_shift » Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:13 pm

Thanks for the reply Stu.

In ABS I’m not sure which module it is but with Bradley it’s drill 5. We perform a backswing, hold wrist cock and then lay the shaft down in a 12pm/6pm posistion while pressuring into the right leg. In real time this would lead back to 4:30 and Modules 1/2/3.

Anyways I noticed that I would always do this drill with a cupped left wrist and shallowing the shaft meant my right elbow would need to travel around 5 inches. I figured out how to perform the drill while hardly moving my right elbow. At the range it seemed to promote a movement of acceleration but I just don’t want to be digging down the wrong rabbit hole.
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Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby Stu Carlburger » Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:49 pm

I think that’s a great feeling.

In my experience, with Bradley’s instruction, digesting all the ABS material I can, and the help of other ABS student, the hardest part of all of this is training yourself away from the feeling of the arms detaching from the body — on both sides of the swing. At first it feels very constricted and contrived, and at least for me, like I’d never be able to generate the power needed to play effectively. I was so used to the motivating factor of my action being arm swing and hand action.

It’s been several years now and I can finally say I’ve “got it” and it’s that feeling I described before that’s being the key that unlocked that door. I’d spend hours marveling at images and video of Hogan’s right arm at impact, but it wasn’t until I realized that he put it there PRESWING that I finally understood how he did it. I literally spent about 6 months hitting no balls except a few chippy shots I too net in the back yard. I took several ABS drills and sort of combined them into my own drill and did it over and over and over with no ball. It all had to do what that preset rotation of the right forearm/internal rotation of the right shoulder. When I finally did hit some balls and play, it was there, no conscious thought needed.

When you’ve spent 30+ years with your arm flying off your body it takes something drastic, in my opinion, to change it. With a ball in the way I’d inevitably revert back. Now, it’s in my DNA and I cannot even pick up a club without making that preset/torqued move of the right arm.
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Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby lagpressure » Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:15 pm

Great to hear Stu,

I can take time to get it, but once you do, it's hard to imagine going back to an armsy disconnected golf swing.

I have seen many golfers try to go flat (not here on ABS) but they forget to allocate forearm rotation.... that is really the key to going flat along with proper weight transfer and an aggressive flat shoulder rotation through and beyond the strike.

If the actions of the body, muscles, strength, repetition are in place, then you could from there learn the golf swing in three moves I suppose.
But each of those three moves have many sub components... so work those first, then put it all together.

It sounds like you have done that now... it's exciting stuff!
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Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby Stu Carlburger » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:26 pm

It’s very exciting Lag!

You’re 100% correct that it’s impossible to go back — in fact, I cannot even remember how. The other day I was demonstrating the “stall and slap” action that everyone (except ABS’ers) uses today, in slow motion, without a ball, and I was shocked at how awkward, contrived, and timing-based it felt — I couldn’t even imagine doing it at full speed and trying to hit an accurate shot.

I played over Easter weekend with my father and his buddies and after I hit my tee ball on #1 one guy exclaimed, “holy shit!” I picked my tee up and he continued by saying, “that was a swing ... like WABAAAAMMMM!” He starting making a little practice swing with this funny little move at the top, kind of like he was seeing my shallowing and the club dropping behind me and tried it himself a bit but didn’t know what it was nor how to do it. “WABAAAAMMMM!” He said again as he tried to swing through, but it was awkward, “I don’t know how the hell you do that but you sure put a whooping on that ball!” That move, the ABS move, is something special and it’s twice as fun to do as it is to see.

The most interesting aspect to me is that when I’m really in a groove I feel a little movement to get the club moving, then everything goes passive and I feel like I’m reacting to the inertia of the club into transition, then a mighty SQUEEEEEEZZZEEEE and I’m at my finish. I’ve lost all sensation of down and even forward in my swing — it’s just, as you and Bradley said, PRESSURE. I never really understood that when I first got involved with ABS. Nor did I understand how passive the action actually is. I know that sounds weird, but like I said, I feel an active move to start, then everything else is a passive, reactive move. Notice is didn’t say inactive — it’s most definitely active, it’s just reactive as opposed to proactive. I’ve told my golf friends that (other than at the very beginning of the swing) I’m NOT moving the golf club, I am REACTING to the golf club and as a result, it is moves me. I think most everyone moves the club and thus relies on timing.
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Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby Ded2Journey » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:40 am

So many nuggets in this post...


Seems like this move may require additional flexibility and mobility to accomplish it?
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Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby paradigm_shift » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:18 pm

lagpressure wrote:Archer is a good example of how a taller player can still flatten the shaft down into P3, and strike through the ball with good knee flex. His shoulders did tilt under a bit through and post impact. To do that you lose a bit of power and add extra clubface rotation post impact. It can work, maybe not ideal, but obviously he struck the ball very well.

If Archer extended his irons 3 inches, reduced his knee flex a bit and kept his torso more upright he would have been standing farther away from the ball. Is it correct to say that he would have swung flatter with this setup and had more level shoulder rotation this way?
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Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby nfbandon » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:26 pm

Extending 3 inches would be a difficult weapon to wield. It would be extremely heavy, yet the shaft would be weaker because of the added length. I have experimented with +2 and found them unworkable.
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Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby IronOfZion » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:43 am

Kolf_court[1].jpg (47.4 KiB) Viewed 2674 times

I like that knee bend and flat entry...

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