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Re: Backswing Loading Options

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:11 am
by dairic
Lag, above you describe four types of backswing loading and various downswing loading options. Also, you describe how for a hitter the best down swing option is loading with gradual acceleration from the top. I was wondering if you have a preference for the type of take away used that's most compatible with eventual drive loading in the downswing. I'm thinking one piece or lagging the club head during take away. A one piece take away for me feels like a way to hit positions because the club head is controlled with the arms from the beginning while lagging it causes the shaft to come alive with momentum and the rest of the swing action becomes an exercise is managing that momentum. Thoughts?

Re: Backswing Loading Options

PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:25 pm
by chris_golf
lagpressure wrote:
So the float described in TGM refers to cocking of the wrists, while a more sophisticated golf swing adds forearm rotation that sends the shaft OFF PLANE and into the 3rd dimension to increase the range of motion of forearm rotation. Nearly every great ball striker does this. What people are seeing with Sergio and Hogan for instance is more forearm rotation loading through transition than wrist cock.. although some of that is happening.... best if they work together...



A good visual for this...
50393922.jpg
50393922.jpg (43.95 KiB) Viewed 7926 times


If I trace my clubhead from FO you can clearly see the slotting in transition...
Chris Driver slotting FO.jpg
Chris Driver slotting FO.jpg (37.78 KiB) Viewed 7919 times

The shaft moves inward, closer to the body, and this compression is actually centripetal force -
but you have to knew what to do with all the loading or you are toast...

In real time it looks somehow conventional:


Chris

Re: Backswing Loading Options

PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:15 pm
by lagpressure
Chris is correct in that the amount of stress you put on the shaft at transition must be dealt with on the downswing. It's one of the core fundamentals of how I teach. Do not load the foundation with an unsupportable load.

There are a lot of ways to take the club back and get the shoulders rotated and the forearms rotated. I can't think of two great strikers who do it the same. We could just start from a coiled position and strike from there.. but if we did.. I would suggest a slight recoil to get things started.. and that recoil is really the start of striking the ball. Just watch a baseball hitter or even a dart thrower.

When you recoil, you really have several options as far as what direction you are going to reach toward. Most go up.. some might go toward the target... Daly would go toward the left foot... but I think there is an even better way that I discuss with the SuperSlotting students....basically forearm rotation. Many float it down into more wristcocking, or work the arms more upright.. but again, I see advantages to a more sophisticated approach.

Re: Backswing Loading Options

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:43 pm
by lbcyp
lagpressure wrote:Let me just clarify if I didn't earlier in this thread that short backswing is not abbreviated shoulder rotation.
In the private area here, we discuss the Snead Diagram which explains this clearly.

But basically, maximum shoulder rotation and minimal arm travel is... in my opinion... is ideal... because you can fully load both torso rotation and forearm rotation, but keep the range of motion of the arc of the hands shorter with less risk of unwanted deviations.


So would you say that ideally when the body stops turning on the backswing the hands and arms should also stop rather than continuing to swing back independent of the body turn?

Re: Backswing Loading Options

PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:55 am
by Mulligan
Dairic,

"I'm thinking one piece or lagging the club head during take away. A one piece take away for me feels like a way to hit positions because the club head is controlled with the arms from the beginning while lagging it causes the shaft to come alive with momentum and the rest of the swing action becomes an exercise is managing that momentum. Thoughts?"

I agree with you on the 1-piece takeaway vs. lead-lag. I prefer the 1-piece takeway. I've been doing that lead-lag move (ala, Martin Ayers). It cause my knees and overall leg work to begin much too early and so my legwork is not supporting my torso in the correct sequence.
-Mulligan

Re: Backswing Loading Options

PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:50 pm
by flatlies
lbcyp wrote:
lagpressure wrote:Let me just clarify if I didn't earlier in this thread that short backswing is not abbreviated shoulder rotation.
In the private area here, we discuss the Snead Diagram which explains this clearly.

But basically, maximum shoulder rotation and minimal arm travel is... in my opinion... is ideal... because you can fully load both torso rotation and forearm rotation, but keep the range of motion of the arc of the hands shorter with less risk of unwanted deviations.


So would you say that ideally when the body stops turning on the backswing the hands and arms should also stop rather than continuing to swing back independent of the body turn?


Agree mulligan, one piece takeaway sets everything up. I have experimented with all and this seems to be the best for hitters, it feels that I do not move my arms on the backswing only shoulders.

What Hogan did with starting the downswing as the club is going back is the coolest move, looks great and puts everything in position. I have worked on this, I feel I have to be all left side pull to get it working. By far the most difficult for me because I think it lets me know where my pivot is in terms of training. I hit the ball further, flies off the club with a hiss, flat boring flight, and the sound a loud crack on good swings. The miss with this is shank because if my pivot is not great I do not square the clubface. The swing I use is more of Trevio without the push, ball flight is more accurate without the hiss, higher weaker flight, no loud crack and some shorter. I have not played in six months but module much. I have not done a video in over a year, will have each swing then post, get all of your thoughts.

Re: Backswing Loading Options

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:47 pm
by MtHermon
Lag wrote - "I am a 115 degree shoulder rotation on the backswing, minimizing hand travel, with big extensor action application. In other words..
LOADED!

Do you apply "115 degree shoulder rotation" and these other principles to every club in the bag (INCLUDING PITCHING WEDGE)?
Thanks...

Re: Backswing Loading Options

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:01 pm
by sixpackkid
Half or partial shots no.Most pitching wedges are hit 75% so 90 degrees is the norm in shoulder rotation since accuracy is more important than distance. The last thing we want are 140_150 yard pitching wedge shots.As we climb in Clubs a 7 iron is the start of expanding the shoulder rotation.

Re: Backswing Loading Options

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:26 pm
by MtHermon
sixpackkid wrote:Half or partial shots no.Most pitching wedges are hit 75% so 90 degrees is the norm in shoulder rotation since accuracy is more important than distance. The last thing we want are 140_150 yard pitching wedge shots.As we climb in Clubs a 7 iron is the start of expanding the shoulder rotation.


Thanks for responding! Your answer seems logical to me

Re: Backswing Loading Options

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:14 pm
by lagpressure
Vary distance by the length of the shoulder rotation.
Best to always keep the club hard and accelerating, even for shorter shots... just make a shorter rotation, then go hard.

Trying to feather the ball in with a lazy swing is a recipe for disaster, especially under pressure. Sure it can be done, but it's dicey unless you are playing and grinding balls every day.

With the modern golf balls... taking spin off it is not as necessary as during the balata age. You can always take more club and hit a lower trajectory shot into the green. Use lofts of the clubs to control trajectory. Unless you are playing in a one club event.. your clubs can do a lot for you.